11th September

[Jbr]

Ok, I may as well be the one to say it, after all I don't usually run away from controversy.

If these attacks had happened in say China or Spain or any other country would they have got as much coverage as they did because America was the target.

A minute long silence is being planned now! The Government are going to be giving out "guidelines"!

www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,784376,00.html

My feelings on Sept 11th - surely it was better to have died because you loved and were loved, than because you hated. The media yesterday seemed to focus on 'hate'- isn't this just teaching us and more importantly our kids to hate back. Isn't this why the tragedy happened in the first place, because kids are taught to hate and grow up believing that it is ok to inflict pain and terror on others. Every time 9/11 is mentioned, it breaks my heart to think of those that suffer and continue to suffer, but my heart also breaks for every other person that suffers in this world, whether it is an act of terrorism or a child being slapped in the street. Yesterday during the minutes silence, my ds was playing happily with a friend, and I looked at them, smiling, giggling, and thought this is what it should be about, I want my ds to understand what it is to love and be loved as this surely has to be the most important thing.

I am so glad Ive found this thread. I feel so down at the moment, I think its a mixture between being a new (ish) mother and the horrible things that are going on around the world, but Ive found myself very tearful over this last couple of days, feeling completely out of control of what happens with terrorism/Iraq/US&UK, terrified that something might happen to those I love dearly. Is this normal, I think about it a lot?

Rhubarb - I don't think that's true about the people of Iraq - some of my dh's colleagues are Iraqi, and they have family there, and they all say how much the Iraqi people hate Saddam Hussein - in fact one of my dh's friends sneaked back into Baghdad two summers ago to see his family, and came back saying that everyone in Baghdad wanted rid of Saddam Hussein. I guess they can't say that in public.

That may be so in Baghdad Musica, they wouldn't want another war as they got blitzed in the last one. But from what I have heard, the Iraqi people are furious that the West are intefering in their politics once again and will keep Saddam in power just to p**s us all off. It's a matter of pride with them, they are a very proud people and don't take kindly to us portraying them as a bunch of fanatics who let faith dictate politics.

Talking of dictators, the Burmese government are currently committing mass genocide but we don't hear about that do we?

Well Yes Rhubarb, Saddam was elected but as he was the only candidate, the result wasn't really that much of a surprise. The opposition are exiled. The ruling group belongs to the Sunni minorituy whilt the majority of the population are Shiite moslems.

If Threeangels is talking about the bridge collapse in Oklahoma earlier this year, it was on page 3 of the broadsheet I read and from memory, around 10 people were killed.

I think the Burma situation receives more coverage than most thanks to Aung San Suu Kyi's efforts and international sanctions have been in place since 1996. I don't get the reference to "mass" genocide though. Would never belittle the shocking situation n Burma but it is my understanding that it is currently only some very small hill tribes of Tibetan descent that are targeted.

Just skimmed through all these messages. Interesting discussion.

Heard on the news this morning that Bush was pledging to stop tyrants running countries that have weapons of mass destruction.

Errr, hello Mr. Bush, we all know you're talking about Saddam - but what about yourself???

I'm sure the citizens of Afghanistan think you come under that category.

Do you mean the Taleban? Most citizens of Afghanistan seem pretty pleased with Mr Bush's efforts from what I've seen. Getting rid of the Taleban was what most of them were desperate for.

An article I was reading recently with interviews with citizens in Kabul suggested that they were bewildered and scared by the bombing - didn't really know what it was all about.
At the end of the day there is so much propaganda and media hype going on that we have to question how much we really know.

Wasnt there brodcasting on the tv that the people were dancing on the streets for what Bush was doing to the Taliban? I think some of the women said they never felt more free from hiding.

I thought that the women were so happy to finally be able to take off those horrible coverings around their faces. Maybe I dont even know what I'm talking about but I beleive I did see this months ago.

And the propaganda works the other way - I don't suppose the Taliban put out info to the citizens of Kabul saying 'We're being bombed because you are going to be liberated from our terrible and oppressive regime.'

The polls have gone down somewhat since the beginning of all this but their still coming out as the majority of Americans are pleased so far with what bush is handling everything and are in favor of a war. I was reading that as of Sat Sept 7th 2002 8 out of 10 feel Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, 6 out of 10 feel they will use them against the US and 6 out of 10 feel the country should attack even if there is no attack first. This whole thing is pretty scary.

If the people of Afghanistan want the Taleban back, I am sure that they could work to get them back in. I am 100% sure that none of the women of Afghanistan would want them, and very few of the men. Prior to the war people talked about 'bombing Afghanistan back into the stone age'. After the bombing had finished a Guardian journalist wrote an artice that said they had been bombed into the 21 centuary.

And does anyone truly think that Bush is 'tyrant' like Saddam?

And Baghdad was not 'blitzed'. Bombed, yes, civilian killed, to our horror, yes,but not blitzed. No deliberate bombing of civilian occured, no mass distruction or starting of fire storms. The war wasn't 'clean', that can never happen. But neither was is as 'dirty' as the war Iraq had with Iran.

We are not pure by any means, but neither are we the 'bad guys' in this one.

Various media items have stuck in my mind this week...
An article about those who had survived 9/11 but were terribly injured. Featured in one of the Sunday magazines, these were interviews with people who had been horrifically burned - I believe some where still in hospital. They were labelled the "forgotten heroes" - because they never get a mention in America. They aren't invited to any of the rememberance services, Bush meet n greets, etc etc. They have also received limited compensation, despite probably never being able to work again and living in almost constant pain. They feel that nobody wants to know them, that they are an embarassment. I found this both incredible and incredibly sad.
The documentary with the firefighters last night - specifically the sound of people hitting the ground again and again.
And then a tiny snippet in one world news section of a broadsheet. An Iranian man had cut off his seven year old daughter's head because he suspected she had been raped by her uncle. People were calling for him to be hanged -but under Iranian law the only person who can pass death sentence on a murderer is the victim's father.
Sorry to blurt out what's going round my mind, but sometimes it all just seems too much, doesn't it?

www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,790533,00.html

Lucy 123 has mentioned this already: if any other mothers are interested in the peace movement, please check out www.cnduk.org or www.stopwar.org.uk . Plenty of parents attended the big march in central London last autumn and although I went alone with ds we made lots of friends to walk with. It was really diverse, with Quakers and church groups, muslim groups, gay rights groups, various student and political organisations and trade unions and professional associations, people in national costume, fancy dress, suits, drag, whatever, as well as just ordinary people without any banner. To see so many different people all marching together was a wonderful experience for both ds and me. After several years of being politically disillusioned and feeling that none of the politicians were interested in mothers' views or problems, I was reassured to see for myself that thousands of people in Britain do prefer peace.

Thanks Amma, I went on both of those sites and signed up my support.

I still think that there are a lot worse leaders than Saddam, but the reason he is being targeted is that he now has control of the Iraq Petroleum Company, so it is essentially an oil war, and as we all know, Bush loves his oil businesses! If this were truly a war on terror, there are a lot of countries that fit the bill, Burma, South Africa, China to name but a few whose leaders totally ignore human rights. But of course, they don't have any oil-fields so that's ok.

I'm just SO frustrated - was just having 'political' discussion with dh about Iraq etc. and his latest argument is 'Well I don't believe you' when I come up with some killer argument. Even when backed up by fact. It's SO annoying!

Well, just had to get that off my chest.

IME political discussions with dhs are never a good idea!

It's like taking history again all this.

I'm having to remind myself about the difference between reason and justification...

I can see kids studying this in about 30 years time being asked "To what extent was the was on Iraq to do with weapons of mass desctruction?"