Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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Rhubarb

The sentence you used earlier in this thread 'Yes God is all-powerful, but I said earlier, he made a promise to give us all free-will and not exert himself upon us. He gave us the earth and it's contents to use to our gain.This system of things will not last long, God will put things right in the last days' is possibly the easiest way to explain why people either don't believe in god or don't think god exists.

Why believe in someone/something that will not show themselves to people at large or help when asked?

If God has vowed not to take any actions in the world then why pray to him/her/it for help when it won't be coming?

TikTok

It seems great minds think alike

Rhubarb - I don't get the free will issue (I was brought up as a Catholic). This is free will with a gun to your head, surely? Yes, you can choose not to believe in god, but he'll make damn sure you regret it.

And as an ex-Catholic, I actually feel quite uncomfortable saying and thinking these things because I still have the feeling that someone is watching me and disapproving. How's that for the power of indoctrination.?

SimonHoward - I find it very difficult to answer your question about why I need to worship God. I don't think that I need to - I want to. It doesn't fill a void in my life because there isn't an aspect of my life that it doesn't touch.

Tiktok - did you read the stuff that I wrote on prayer and healing?

Simon, I find the phrase "great minds think alike" very strange as truly great minds think like no others, that's what makes them great!

I am agnostic, verging on becoming an atheist. In fact it is only my church-going childhood that stops me veering off into disbelief. However, I do believe that, if there is a God, he/she etc would not save people purely because they roll up to church regularly.

I also believe that someone who lives in a 'Christian' manner (even if they don't believe/attend church) must surely be more worthy of going to Heaven than some of the church-going hypocrites that I have met. I knew a JW who used to spout on about his religion, but he was the most sarcastic, spiteful man I have ever known.

Religion is the cause of most of the wars that have ever been fought. If there is a God, there will only be one God, whatever name he is worshipped as. Why fight over it?

Finally, let's face it, most of us are going to Hell anyway! Who of us has never broken one of the 10 commandments? I certainly have coveted my neighbour's ox...well, his car anyway! I'm sure Heaven must be a very lonely place I'm sure that I sound flippant, but I do really find it interesting how religion brings out the bigots in us all.

What an infuriating fascinating and addictive thread. Thanks Bloss! I have to say, I am so interested by how God is changing/seen so differently by believers. I'm with Simon & Tik Tok etc by saying, what on earth's the point of prayer if God isn't interfering? And if he is, why doesn't he do it properly? Come on, you can't have it both ways... Also, if there is a God, why doesn't he just pop down every so often, boom from the skies or whatever so there's no doubt and then we'd all be Christians and happy as larks. Is he shy?

I have read all of this thread with great interest but, as a pagan, had no intention of posting. However I must pick up on aloha's postings :

..."like saying I have rejected Demeter, or Aphrodite. Nobody would seriously think I should be considering whether to worship them or not,..."

"People in Roman times used to think that their gods ran everything etc, but nobody believes in their gods anymore."

Just because this thread is primarily about Christianity and Jesus does not mean that other religions and deities should be dismissed so flippantly. Many pagans worship a pantheon of gods, as in the greek or roman tradition, and would find both of these offhand comments insulting.

Fantastic! Everyone's offended- even the pagan fraternity! Or should that be maternity?

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SofiaAmes

I always thought great minds thought alike but geniuses were unique?

My view is similar to Chinchilla's. Bloss, your view of God seems to be of "someone" who has to be constantly appeased rather like a domineering parent or a teacher who expects far too much from a pupil. I find this idea too paternalistic to buy into. Whilst I agree that the basics of Christianity can be seen as an ideal way to live one's life surely these are the basic tenets of people getting on with other people in a civilised fashion. My experience of a few regular churchgoers, usually those who make a point of telling you that they are apropos of nothing, is that they are some of the most bigotted, petty and even cruel people I have ever met. I hope I haven't offended anyone by putting my view fairly strongly.

I've only skim read the posts - too many and not enough time!! This post might seem a bit terse but the troops are slowly trashing the playroom around me so I've not got long

Someone said that "the greatest mass murderers of all time have been confirmed, militant atheists" Out of interest, was Hitler an antheist? He specifically murdered people based on their religeous preference.

I guess I'm agnostic rather than atheist (hedging my bets!) but do not believe in a specific god. All religeons (incluging Pagan) are valid in my mind - one of the 10 commandments is about not worshiping false idols but does it specifically comdemn worshipping valid idols which are not the Christian God?

If women are not to teach men, shouldn't the book of Ruth be struck from the OT?

The analogy of driving on the other side of the road/driving safely doesn't work for me as driving on the opposite side to everyone else clearly isn't safe! For the bible to say that there is no male or female and then to say women can't teach men seems a contradiction as, in theat case, clearly there is a male/female difference.

"and Adam was not decceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor" If a man was sheep-like enough to follow the suggestions of a woman, surely men are not ideally qualified to be teachers either

Bloss said that if everyone lived by gods rules for 5 years "most diseases would be wiped out" how do you work that one out?? As a reward, would menigitis be cured? Would cancer go away? Would bad bacteria simply wave goodbye and stop infecting people? I'm not sure I get this one! Sorry if I missed the explanation somewhere - as I said, I only had time to skim read this thread.

WRT the bible being rewritten by god in light of modern society. If god has truely given us all free will, then he can not have forseen how the world would change in the millennia since the bible was written. The basic principles such as the 10 commandments are, no doubt, still applicable but other nuances and "minor" principles would be inappropriate now given how we've evolved since he set us off to live our lives freely.

Does the old testament not order male circumcision? Do all christians follow this rule along with all the others such as women not teaching men?

My memory of the bible is very hazy, coming from RE lessons at school about 15 years ago, so I am prepared to be corrected on anything I say in relation to this.

OK, my 15 month old is climbing up a mountain of cushions so I think I'd better go. This is absolutely fascinating though!

As an aside, will god make my 3 year old eat vegetables if I pray hard enough??

Thanks, Bloss, for your thoughtful responses. I think I am familiar with his explanation of suffering - in fact there is a line in the play/film Shadowlands which sums it up - 'the pain then is part of the joy now' or something similar....that without the knowledge/fear/experience of terrible grief and pain, we cannot fully understand its opposite.

I have read quite a lot in the past, but none of it convinces me. I am particularly uncomfortable with the idea that if we all lived according to God's law for 5 years then how wonderful life would be....there are so many conflicting interpretations of God's law, and so many people who think it is God's will to evangelise, that I think it could be a recipe for chaos....as has been said, people thinking they have the only correct understanding of God's law has led to untold suffering.

And why would there be no poverty? Surely, a Christian life demands a renunciation of material well-being.

Ionesmum - yes, I read what you said about prayer, and how it is (as I understand you to say) for you, more a way of getting close to God and recieving solace from him, than putting in a shopping list of requests.

That seems to me to be equally explainable as a psychological exercise, rather than a spiritual one - not that this makes it unworthy, if people are helped. I do think it's a way of getting God off the hook - and a way of hanging on to an irrational, deluding belief in someone who doesn't exist.

Bloss - 2 really quick points (in work).

Why would the absence of death free us from fear? Suely it is the presence of death which gives our lives purpose. Live it well an dbe good. For people here and now and for the future - not for any percieved 'reward' for ourselves. The absence of death would fill me with fear.

Why is it wrong to lie? You say most could not get through a month without lying. Possibly true, but most lies are for a good purpose - 'Does my arse look big in this?' Lting to embellish a story makes it more interesting and entertaining. I don't believe that most people lie maliciously regularly.

The point about some state of nirvana being reached within 5 years has already been covered.

Sorry for typos and any misunderstandings - doing this quickly.

OK, a few points in reply.. why is it bad to have homosexual urges? Just because??? That's really not fair, particularly as just about every species on earth has them and acts on them (so they certainly are 'natural' and as you say, homosexual relationships can be as or more loving than heterosexual ones, so why does God hate gays? He doesn't? I think telling people that falling in love and acting on it will send them to hell is pretty aggressive. You'll say that these people are being condemned not for being gay but for breaking God's law, well this is an example of a law being very stupid and very unfair and incurring a grotesque punishment for something that IMO is no crime whatsoever. Would you kill your own son for being gay? Of course not, so how could a loving God do this? And yes, I would refuse to worship a God that ordered me to submit to my husband. Why? Because it's stupid. It is entirely against my nature - but unlike, say, your examples of lying and bad temper, isn't harmful. Indeed, my husband would also hate it if I wasn't me with my mind of my own. Another silly, pointless and unfair law with a ridiculous punishment to boot.

I find it odd that very specific people must suffer (the famine victims in Africa etc) because long, long ago Eve fancied an apple. You keep saying 'we' rebelled. Who is this 'we' who pushed God out of the Garden? As far as I can gather your argument is that because Eve took the apple (poor Eve, such a sexist story) everyone must suffer until judgement day. Isn't that taking a grudge too far? When God gets pissed off he really stays pissed off! It seems a bit bleak when this omnipotent God stands by to watch the suffering of the innocents because he's still mad about something that happened at the dawn of time. Indeed, why was God so present and meddling then but not now? He was always booming away to Moses and the like but stays very quiet now. I do think the parable you quoted sums up a lot of my feelings - how grossly unfair to put your 'proof' of existence in a book (pretty weak proof & there are books and stories for all religions) but if people aren't convinced by this particular book, they are doomed. Not fair, not nice, not kind. If God's message is so vital, I really think a more direct form of warning would be more reasonable - how about talking to us so we could hear (and I mean really hear, not this inner voice stuff Christians talk about)? If God visibly appeared in every home in the world simultaneously and actually spoke to everyone, then that would be pretty impressive. You might say, why should he do this? Well, he's supposed to love us, right? He wants us to be saved? In that case he should put himself out a bit more instead of sitting there enjoying the view. If my child was drowning I wouldn't be sitting there twiddling my thumbs and vaguely hoping that he spotted the lifebelt, I would be swimming out to physically drag him back to shore. If was omnipotent I would whisk him out of the water and pop him safely by my side. And I wouldn't require him to have any particular beliefs or worship me first! What kind of parent is this God who wouldn't do the same? Unconditional love really isn't his thing, is it? Speaking of which, a God with all powers who decides that the best way of saving us all is to choose to kill his son isn't one I like much either. The bit in the old Testament where thingy is ordered to kill his son as a proof of his love of God (long time since I read it) always turned my stomach. Imagine the heartbreaking terror of that child. How he would have sobbed, wet himself in fear and begged for mercy. Yet his father was all set to kill him until God said 'only joking'. Hmm, that kid isn't going to be scarred for life, is he? I don't know who comes out of that story worse. A father willing to kill his child to prove something, or a God who enjoys the suffering of the child (or at least thinks it doesn't matter as much as getting people to submit to him).
Finally, you say, suppose God existed how would you feel then. Ok, let's go there. I would be horrified and devastated. I really don't like this vengeful, bigoted and cruelly whimsical God and the thought of living with him for all eternity seems nightmarish. Plus, if I went to heaven there would be nobody there I knew, as all my friends and family would be in Hell. How could I be happy in heaven knowing that? I would have to be one sick individual to be happy knowing my exalted place was at the expense of the suffering of those I love. I would spend all my time lobbying God for a change in the law and organising protest marches (What would he do then, I wonder? Throw me out? Very loving...) I also disagree that the knowledge of eternal life would free us up to do amazing things with our lives here on earth. The evidence of suicide bombers tells us a different story. They think their lives on earth are unimportant and disposable because of their firm belief in the herafter. Us humanists (for want of a better term) believe this is it, so we better make the most of it and love each other as much as we can right now as we may not be here tomorrow. It's like the flowers in my garden that bloom and die. Yes, that particular flower will never come back, but it was lovely while it lasted. I think people are the same.
Oh, another thing, you say God knows suffering because his son died and was tortured. You say you would be unable to forgive anyone who did this to your child, thus proving the goodness of God. Yet you agree that God is omnipotent, so in fact, God stood by and 'let' people torture and kill his son. Suppose you did that - allowed someone to kill your child while you stood back even though you had the power to intervene. Wouldn't you share the blame and guilt with your child's killers? You would in law and I think morally too. Does God therefore share the blame for Jesus's sufferings, which were indeed, terrible and really very moving.
BTW, I have read a lot of the Bible and acres of CS Lewis but nope, still no belief. You say belief isn't important, instead we must just accept God's authority. But what about if you are convinced that God is a myth (just like Aphrodite and Demeter )? How am I supposed to accept the authority of something I think has the same basis in reality as the tooth fairy?

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Bloss - I'll be back later but in my job, I'd NEVER lie on a customs declaration!

Bloss, very worried about your point about black and white people being different but equal. What do you mean by different? In looks? But we all look different from each other. Of do you really believe that white and black people are profoundly different as people? What you are advocating is people being forced to behave differently because of an arbitrary rule based on gender. This same rule applied to colour led straight to apartheid or 'separate development' - most of which was applied by very strict white Christians in South Africa. Why is submitting to your husband like obeying the law (as personified by a policeman)? Or is this one of God's 'because I say so' laws?

Bloss, I want to make it clear I am not accusing you of racism, but I do think we have to be careful with his different but equal spiel as it very rarely means that in practise. In any conversation with a police officer in his/her official role they are NOT equal with me as they has the power to arrest me, and I am well aware of that and behave very differently with a police officer on duty than I would with any 'normal' person. I don't say what I mean, I am deferential and keep my views to myself. In other words, I pretend to be someone I'm not ("no officer, I certainly won't go round that corner at 40mph again. I really am terribly sorry. Thank you".) I really don't want my personal relationships to be conducted on this level - I'm not a child. More, I don't see any reason why they should be. Hey, it's a bit early for wine over here, but I'll have a nice cup of coffee instead!

Bloss, in support of your response to Aloha regarding God not "showing himself", I was just reading in Mark last night (Chapter 7, I think) how many miracles Jesus did while he was here, right in front of people, and they still didn't believe him. For instance, when Jesus was teaching huge crowds of people in the wilderness and he produced enough food for thousands of people (twice). The bible says that even the disciples couldn't comprehend it, because "their hearts were hardened". I also read how groups of people followed Jesus wherever he went, grabbing at him and touching him so that they could be healed. In one particular place he went to, it said that "everyone who touched him or even touched the edge of his cloak, were healed." And yet the Pharisees still claimed that "his power was from the devil" (a lame excuse for not wanting to believe in him), and the people still crucified him, after he did hundreds of miracles in his lifetime. And we know that Jesus really existed, because a Jewish historian named Josephus who also lived at the time, wrote about him. So if Jesus performed miracle after miracle in front of people's faces and they still chose not to believe, then why should God keep doing it time and time again? He says in the bible that "man has no excuse for not believing in him, because all they have to do is LOOK AROUND - at creation, at the perfect order of the universe, at the millions of creatures, at the sophisticated design of a human being. How a man and a woman "fit together" to produce children. Does anyone truly believe that all of this is an accident? Many of the answers that people are seeking are in God's word, but no one wants to bother reading it. It's amazing how many people think they know about the bible because they've read a few verses here and there, or they've heard something from someone else. I think the only way anyone will ever find out more, is to seek the answers themselves.