Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

Bloss - I will answer your question in your 12.50 posting along the lines of 'who says that going to church will save you?'

We had a temp in our office who said exactly that. She was a born-again Christian who told me that a bad person who goes to church regularly will go to Heaven, and a good person who doesn't won't. She was convinced that going to church and hearing the word was the only way that she would be accepted by God, and thought that just living in a Christian way was not enough.

Brain washed?? I think so, but we agreed to differ on the subject. At the end of the day, we do not really know the truth about God. If there is one, we'll find out later, and I'm sure I'll be kicking myself then! I just think that religion causes a lot of hatred in the world, when it should bring people together.

I'm not sure I feel happy with the policeman analogy as justification for submitting to your husband. A policeman's position is in upholding and enforcing the laws of a society. These laws are in effect collectively decided upon by the broader society and in turn are in place to avoid wrongdoing which in the most part would put innocent parties at risk.

A husband however might be a selfish irresponsible idiot who enjoys humiliating his wife.

But God has certainly never showed himself to me - and I've read about lots of miracles performed by Gods over the millennia - eg Leda raped by Zeus in the shape of a swan. Do you believe that? If not, why not, when you believe the Bible's tales? I think a certain scepticism is entirely reasonable. You say why should God 'continue' to show himself. Well, for a start, he hasn't bothered since Biblical times and I think that's quite a long rest, because not of us were alive then so he hasn't 'continued' to show himself to any of us, and finally and mostly because he's supposed to love us, want us to be saved, so really should go out of his way a bit more to convince us and not give up so easily. Surely it would be easy for him to think of something convincing - he is supposed to be God, after all. Also, no, of course I don't think the world is an 'accident'. I think it is a beautiful work in progress, the result of millions of years of evolution, a lovely process and a 'miracle' in its own, entirely godless way. Imperfect, of course, with its diseases etc, but clever and intricate but entirely of the earth and not of god. I find it so odd that people say, it's beautiful, so God must have made it, yet never, it's ugly and dangerous, so God must have made it (I refer to famine, war, malaria etc). I see the flowers in my garden. They are beautiful but I didn't make them, they made themselves out of the earth.

I know there was a man called Jesus who lived and died on the cross, like so many other poor souls at that time. He seems to have been a good man, with some sound views and a mostly compassionate nature, who loved children and fiesty women (Martha & Mary is one of the stories I like best). He was clearly a natural leader and very charismatic. However, that does not mean I believe he was the son of God. That's rather a big leap from knowing he existed to believing he was God.

Aloha, did this other "rape" story have any witnesses???? As I said, there were witnesses to what Christ was doing, in the shape of his disciples and historians who didn't even know him. There were a number of accounts written about him in Jewish history, so some of these "tales" in the bible are supported by witnesses. Aloha, how do you know that you are right? You sound very convinced in what you believe but you also don't have any proof that everything exists as a result of evolution, because you weren't there. So it is simply speculation, your beliefs against mine, mine against someone else's. Part of God's reason for sending Christ was so that his works could be seen and recorded, and that has happened whether people accept it or not. If you want him to show himself to you why don't you ask him!!!!???

Aloha didn't mean to sound over-zealous , nothing I said was meant to offend, but people are so certain that christianity is full of holes but they think that their own theories are perfectly ok!! I don't see how people (who are so superior to monkeys) are supposed to have evolved from apes, and I don't for a minute think that the universe and everything in it just 'evolved' on its own. Anyway.... this topic could go on forever.

But I AM here. Evolution is a continuing business which is far from over and is happening as we speak - the mutation of genes can be clearly seen and we are getting taller, generation by generation. We have an enormous wealth of physical evidence, not just some ancient books with accounts of events that happened long ago written by people who were, frankly, proselytising on behalf of their religion and therefore hardly impartial(and of course, few of those accounts were truly contemporary). Yes, I believe Jesus existed but am very sceptical about his 'miracles'. I am convinced that there is no God for exactly the same reason as I am convinced there are no fairies, no Aphrodite, no leprachauns no will-o-the-wisp etc - because I think it is irrational to believe in something for which there is no evidence.
And OK, Come on God, show us what you're made of. And you leprachauns while you're about it.

Certainly no offence taken Liamsmum - in fact, I am surprised and pleased how little offence the christian sorority has taken to my views. That's what makes this so addictive (even if we are getting nowhere).

What a very strong subject and I've read it with interest over the past few days. My mother is very religious and has a very strong faith in the Christian Faith (Church of Scotland). Me on the other hand really cannot be bothered with it at all, some people believe, some don't we are all entitled to our own opinions. If I want to go and have thoughts about God and whoever, then you don't have to read the Bible or any other Religious literature to be a believer or a follower of the Christian or any other Faith. A good friend of my late inlaws once said that "there are more sinners sitting behind the minister than in front of him". The minister in our village is a totally cliquey little man, of whom I have no time and really cannot stand, but, my mother is very friendly with him and his wife and babysits for them sometimes as well.
My own view on this, and this is my view, people don't have to go to church read the bible etc to have their own beliefs, religious or not. I really cannot be doing with people who start quoting the bible at you when you are walking along the street, or JW calling at your home, I think that JW are all potty anyway. We do not have a bible in our house, I don't see the need for one anyway.

"why do you think God could not foresee what has happened? On the contrary, there are indications in the Bible that God knows how everything will go from the beginning to the end"

In which case, how do we truly have free will if everything that would happen could be seen from the time the bible was written? That implies that everything is pre-ordained and we have no real choices to make.

I can't go and read bits from the bible as we've recently moved house and (excuse the blasphemy) heaven alone knows where my bible(s) are!

Liamsmum, you said "people are so certain that christianity is full of holes but they think that their own theories are perfectly ok" And true believers are similarly sure that their beliefs are perfectly ok and non-believers theories are full of holes That doesn't mean that either belief or theory is wrong or is more valid than the other. It's how those "holes" are being discussed which makes this thread so fascinating. If we all agreed with each other, it would have ended many many posts ago!

I'm sure my beliefs are right for me, just as muslims, pagans and christians etc are all certain that their beliefs are right for them. I am "arguing" my point on this thread, not to try and convert anyone to my way of thinking but to expand my understanding and maybe make others think about their beliefs from a different perspective. I am under no illusion that my theories are watertight whereas (sweeping generalisation here - apologies ) Christians refuse to accept that I and others like me could be right and they could be wrong.

Sobernow, likewise.

Aloha, what are your views on Xmas then? Don't you believe in it either? To add another thing, I cannot be doing with the Happy Clappy stuff that is going on at the moment, my daughters last School Service had clappy stuff and I really didn't like it at all.

Simonhoward and the other great minds -what about the second half of that well known saying?

Jasper

I'm afraid that I will need you to be a Bodhisattva and enlighten me on what the rest of the saying is.

SimonHoward, "Fools seldom differ" is the rest of it.

Right just to pick up on what Simon and others are saying. When God did used to appear to people in the Old Testatament, even that was not enough for them, they still worshipped false gods, they still went around killing people and generally being a bad bunch. God spoke through righteous men such as Abraham and Moses, often appearing to them or talking directly to them, many miracles were performed for the people's benefit but they still chose sin, so what makes you think that if God were to come from out of the sky today that we would all suddenly start believing in him? It hasn't worked in the past.

God did all of this in the Old Testament to try to bring his people back to him, he was not afraid of showing himself to them. He led the Israelites out of slavery when they asked him to. But when he saw that his people were choosing temptation and sin over him he sent his son down to deliver his message in person, to die so that we might be redeemed. This was God's last resort, now he last left us alone for a while but will return again at the end of days.

As for natural disasters, yes they occur, but they are not God's wrath, they are simply and purely natural disasters that happen to everyone, good and bad, just as the sun shines on you whether you are a Christian or a Pagan. Adam and Eve chose to live in this imperfect world when they left the garden of Eden, they chose sin over God and so had to leave the paradise God had created for them and survive on their own. Yes God can interfere for us, how many times have you heard people relate a close call story and say that their guardian angel must have been watching them? God does have plans for each and every one of us, but we can choose whether or not to go along with them.

This answers Simon's question of why we personally need a God. In my experience I was brought up a Catholic but my faith wavered. I was offered a chance to live in Scotland for a year doing missionary work (aid stuff) and I really wanted to go, I prayed very hard that I might be accepted but I was turned down. I hated God for that, but two months later I was offered a place at a residential adult college down south studying for a legal diploma, I reluctantly accepted. There I studied for a year, made many friends, including two from Preston. I left there and went to Aberdeen University only to be put off by the anti-Englishness, so I spent a few miserable months back home wondering what to do and blaming God again for my lack of progress. I happened to get an interview at the university in Preston, knowing my few friends I had made from there, I decided to take the plunge and move here, even though I had no job and just enough money for 2 months rent. Again I prayed long and hard as it was such a risk to take, I had not even been accepted at the university. As it happened I didn't get accepted straight away, they wanted me to do a year in the college first. During my college interview I mentioned I was looking for work and I was directed towards a job vacancy. Again, I didn't get it but I impressed the interviewers so when a different vacancy came up they offered it to me, 2 weeks before I ran out of money.

Through my two friends I made a lot more friends and met my now husband. I had plans to move to London after University but settled down with him. We married, went backpacking for a while and had big ideas to move to Europe, but I fell pregnant after praying to God to show me which way to go with my life. I went ballistic, this was not the answer I was looking for! But two years on she is a dream and the best thing that has happened to us. So I do believe that God has gently guided me all my life, he has still given me choices all along, even when I fell pregnant I still had a choice. But by praying about it, the decisions I have made have been the right ones for me, even though I might not have seen it at the time.

As for homosexuals, I found an interesting quote in the Bible from Jesus himself (Matthew 19:12) "For there are different reasons why men cannot marry: some, because they were born that way; others, because men made them that way; and others do not marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let him who can accept this teaching do so." Jesus was NOT a homophobe, nor should any Christian be.

And for those who keep pouting on about organised religions, why use that as an excuse not to be religious? If you don't want to belong to an organised religion you don't have to be, Jesus never said you did, there are no particular rules and regulations he wants you to follow, if you read what he preaches it is all common sense and very wise, we would all live together in a lot more harmony if people followed what is written in the Bible.

Gosh, thanks, I thought I'd be alone on here. I'm amazed anyone agrees with me! Tigger2, yes we do celebrate Christmas, but IMO, that's no hypocrisy because you certainly don't need religion for that. Britons have been celebrating the winter solstice in December long before Christianity hijacked Christmas. Yule logs, drinking, trees, robins, fire, lights & feasting are all pure pagan stuff and certainly not the property of Christians. I think I do know the real meaning of christmas, and it's a big hooley in the middle of horrible winter. And you see, because I don't believe in god, for me Easter & Christmas are nice fun holidays with interesting traditions and rituals, but with as much religious meaning as the nice stuff with the tooth fairy etc. And of course, Easter is also a pagan festival - those early Christians were clever enough to keep people's festivals intact. Hares, eggs etc are all live and direct from pre-Christian times. There's nothing religious about an Easter Egg.

I still don't think I've had a satisfactory answer to my question about why God only appeared to people in Biblical times (and then only in obscure ways like in burning bushes) and has been sulking ever since. I am sure an omnipotent diety could be more convincing if he tried. And an omnipotent deity who loved his children would surely make more of an effort to save them from the fiery furnace. If your child was at risk I think you'd try something to save them, right? I have already expressed my views on why I'm not very impressed by God 'sacrificing his only son'. Briefly, I think allowing your child to be killed while you watch is pretty hideous, and surely if God is omnipotent and knows all things, he could have come up with a better solution to sin (& it wasn't even a solution of any kind). I just think a God who can do everything and wants to save us (and I mean us, this lot reading this thread, not the humanity of thousands of years ago) he could do better than some fishes and burning bush, which frankly, in the age of TV is a bit small beer. IMO if he wants to save us, he could try a LOT harder with the people who exist now.

aloha - you're not alone. I'm just at work, frustratingly reading without being able to dive in!

I rather like Bonfire Night too, but it doesn't mean I want to burn Catholics. I just like bonfires and fireworks...

So hell might be just the place for me, eh? I do like to be warm..

I think Soupdragon makes a good point. Does God know how everything will turn out or not?

Bloss, if I understand you correctly, you say God doesn't 'send' us to hell, we choose to go there by behaving in a certain way. But, of course, we don't. We largely live our lives the best way we can (murderers, rapists, genocidal dictators excepted). Why does God makes laws that people - eg gay people - will almost certainly break, then say that their choice condemns them to eternal damnnation. Presumably he could change the rules? It's like Aug San Sui Chi (whose name I am sure I have hideously misspelt) the Burmese opposition leader, whose courageous battle against the murderous government saw her imprisoned for many years. Did she ask for that to happen? You could argue yes. But you could also argue that the laws she fell foul of were cruel and unfair.

Rhubarb

I have no problem with common sense and living in harmony. I live by those ideals and would love it if more people did as well.

What I do have a problem with are the rules that I see as being either stupid or of no real use in modern day society.