Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

make that announcing not pronouncing.

As a slight aside, has anone else ever read Mission by Patrick Tilley?

It theorises that Jesus was in fact the host for a time travelling alien entity.

Good story and as far as I can see as valid an option to what happened as the bible.

I'm in it , too! I used to believe, wavered for many years, and now more recently am entirely comfortable with my atheism. I think it is deluding oneself to think anything else, and without wanting to insult people who have a sincerely-held faith, I put it all on a par with believing in Santa, fairies, pixies, magic tricks and the Easter Bunny.

Life is sh*t at times. Kids die. People suffer. Good people have bad things happen to them. People die in their thousands of starvation because the rains didn't come at the right time. It sucks. Belief in God is an attempt to make some sort of sense of it all....by saying this life isn't all there is, that there is something else after it, that is so ineffably wonderful, all the sorrow on earth pales.

The Christian story is a wonderfully poetic way of expressing this, and it does tie in historically with real events.

But it does not mean there is an all-seeing God.

I have a little more sympathy with Christians who get round the all-powerful-God-thing by saying 'aha! He is not all powerful! He would do something about kids dying/suffering/starvation if he could, but he can't'

But only a little. I still think they are kidding themselves.

Nope - we have one life, we should do the best we can to love one another, and not to make life worse for anyone...and then we die.

Oh, Simon, I know. But I'm loonier than David Ike about my son - the wonder boy! Still, at least I know I'm loony about him and do keep apologising to my friends for boring them witless about his charms. I so agree about liking churches and rituals and vicars on bikes and church bells on a Sunday morning, BUT I still don't believe it is anything other than a pretty picture. I had a humanist wedding (which actually used some of the lovely, poetic phrases from the KJB without the God stuff) because I love the sense of ritual so much but would have been such a hypocrite to go to Church and tell a lot of lies. I have to admit to feeling slightly uncomfortable at religious weddings/funerals as I want to argue!! (I don't though). MUST do some work now, though it's not as interesting as this...

BTW Bloss, I know you are very sincere in your beliefs and I don't mean to be dismissive of you as a person, but I really am just as sincere in mine. I hope you are not feeling offended or patronised or anything. I am very touched you would die for me in the right circumstances. Even though I disagree very strongly with you (esp about submitting and homosexuality) I think you sound like a good person.

Oh, Simon, I know. But I'm loonier than David Ike about my son - the wonder boy! Still, at least I know I'm loony about him and do keep apologising to my friends for boring them witless about his charms. I so agree about liking churches and rituals and vicars on bikes and church bells on a Sunday morning, BUT I still don't believe it is anything other than a pretty picture. I had a humanist wedding (which actually used some of the lovely, poetic phrases from the KJB without the God stuff) because I love the sense of ritual so much but would have been such a hypocrite to go to Church and tell a lot of lies. I have to admit to feeling slightly uncomfortable at religious weddings/funerals as I want to argue!! (I don't though). MUST do some work now, though it's not as interesting as this...

BTW Bloss, I know you are very sincere in your beliefs and I don't mean to be dismissive of you as a person, but I really am just as sincere in mine. I hope you are not feeling offended or patronised or anything. I am very touched you would die for me in the right circumstances. Even though I disagree very strongly with you (esp about submitting and homosexuality) I think you sound like a good person.

oh yesss! so much to read, so little time.

A couple of quick ones:

Tinker: JW believe that there are 144,000 places in heaven, basically. The reason that they do so much door knocking is because the more converts they make the closer they get to winning a place! See Pauls teaching in Romans re: justified by Grace.

Pupuce: whereas most practcising evangelical, charismatic, pentecostal (and others, probably) condemn the PRACTISE of Homosexuality, they do not condemn the preference. It's what you do with it that counts, the old 'condemn the sin, not the sinner' thing. Most of these people would probably agree that whereas some homosexuality is learnt, a lot of is is probably 'genetic', so to speak. Why do you think there were so many monks etc in the old days? Celebacy used to be very fashionable. Now days, alas, you're considered a bit weird if you don't have sex.

Bloss: As far as I know there is no clear layout of hierarchical structures in the early church, therefore you could assume that neither men nor women were in charge ('everyone was equal, holding all things in common etc.'. Each had valuable roles, including women deacons. The reason that all the top dogs were men was that they were the disciples (whom Jesus chose) and it was the fact that they had relationship with the living Christ that gave them their positions (as well as the acts of Pentecost, I would presume) rather than their sex. Paul is the exception to this, although you could say he was exceptional all together, and he did sort of meet the risen Christ. Christ commisioned them, which was entirely appropriate in such a male dominated society. Now we no longer live in such a society, who knows? The idea that God still lives 2000 years ago is a little odd. The Kingdom of God is from everlasting to everlasting, exists now, and God moves and works now in language and action that his children (whom he loves) can understand. If you love your kid, who only spoke English, you wouldn't speak to them in Greek because it was 'better for them', would you? Neitehr does God. There is a lovely saying by some South American Theolgian which says something like 'God speaks only in the vernacular'. Gotta go, looking forward to reading the rest of this later.

Oh, and SimonHoward, I think your initial posts (haven't read the latter ones)were really based more on religious institutions than any idea that there could be an Omiscient, Omnipresent Being who exists outside our own (extremely limited) understanding of what is and isn't. What if there was? what would you do? Do you really believe that we are the centre of everything? I must admit, though Humanity has a certain beauty, I would despair if I thought that that's all!

Tiktok, God gave us free will when he created us, he cannot interfere in everything that we do nor would we want him to. It is not in God's plan that children get abused and killed, their abusers have to answer for that, nor is it God's plan that millions die in holy wars. People can choose whether or not to be good or evil, God can only guide them, if they turn away from him he will not drag them kicking and screaming back onto the right path. God is hurting at the things the world is doing, but he keeps his promises, and he promised to butt out until the last days. It seems funny that people ask 'why does God allow all this to go on', yet when you think about it we don't want God in our schools, we don't want God in our workplaces, we don't want to be preached the Good News, in fact we reject God in our daily lives, and then when something goes wrong we say "Where was God?"

As for the Bible being sexist, well there was an old testament prophet, Ruth and her book can be found in the Bible, so God did't just use men to get his word across. Also Jesus had a theological discussion with a Samaritan woman in the NT and she was the first person he disclosed his true identity to. Also when Jesus rose from the dead, it was women to whom he first appeared. The NT does not condone stoning, hence the famous Jesus quote "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". Yes he was pretty tough on adultery, but he was also tough on those who condemned others without seeing their own failings first.

As regards homosexuality, it was mainly St.Paul who was so opinonated on that score. The church takes the line that there is nothing wrong with members of the same sex loving one another, but sexual intercourse between members of the same sex is not what nature intended, and so is wrong. The same line the Catholic church takes on contraception actually.

The JW's have a number 144,000, as the number of people who will make up the Council of Heaven, nothing to do with those who will remain on the earth, for which they have no figures. I really do think that if we are to diss certain religions we should do our research on them first, it is hardly fair since they are not here to defend themselves.

To Simon and others who do not believe. The message that the Bible gives is one of love, goodness, kindness, humility, etc. People have used the Bible to start all sorts of wars, but if you read the Bible, you would know that this is not the message the Bible gives at all. And whilst you may not believe in God, you cannot dismiss the message the Bible gives. For a book that is more than 2000 years old, the fact that it is still a bestseller today and the messages that lie within it are still relevant to the 21st Century says something.

As regards Jesus. Well the Jews were expecting a great warrior, someone who would free them from the control of the Romans, a great leader such as Moses. So when Jesus came on the scene, son of a carpenter, preaching humility and peace, well no wonder a lot of them still refuse to accept Jesus as the Son of God. Yet if you read the NT this man's wisdom is profound, he astonished many elders and stunned his opponents into silence, not bad going for a carpenter's son. Even if you do not believe him to be the Son of God, there is enough scientific evidence to prove his existence and he was certainly one hell of a man ('scuse the pun!)

Thank God (well, you know what I mean!), I was beginning to think I was in a minority. When I was 13 and at Catholic school I used to ask my RE teachers questions about why there was so much suffering in the world if there was a God, and I couldn't get satisfactory answers then either, just the usual flannel about people having free will to choose good or evil. When I wrote at school that it seemed possible to live a good life without God having to have anything to do with it they said humanism was OK but...
Fundamentalists and non-believers are never going to have any common ground, but it makes stimulating reading!

aloha - your son can't be God because my dd clearly is

aloha - I have been thinking about our born-again friends and the way god arranged things to suit them or not and remembered 2 anecdotes from then:

1. He desperately needed a parking space, prayed, and god provided one.

2. She left her purse in a phone box (told you it was a few years ago!), prayed, and it didn't get nicked before she got back.

Must be nice!

Manna

If humans are the peak of evolution in the universe then we are in deep trouble.

Rhubarb

I have nothing wrong with being good, nice and kind but why does it have to be withing the bounds of a religion?

With regards to homosexuality, if two people love each other then God is there, because he is the God of love. Gay people cannot change their sexual orientation any more than their skin colour, and I do not believe that God wants them to suffer feelings of guilt or be forced into celibacy. I believe that abusive relationships are the things which are wrong and I've seen them in "god-fearing families" far more than among my gay friends.

My mother is on the board of an AIDS charity, and as a Christian was appalled when a Christian organisation tried to stop the relief work that they do in Scotland.

Well done on free will, Rhubarb. As for religion being restrictive, personally I've never felt freer than when I started to take my faith seriously.

Rhubarb (and others!), I can accept that humankind should take responsibility for the things that humankind has control over - making a mess of the planet, war, wicked acts done to others. I (hopefully) take responsibilty for any acts of good or ill I perpetrate myself, and I want my children to do this too.
So, unless you are saying God is not powerful (which is, as I acknowledged, a strand of some religious positions), why cannot God take responsibility for the things he has control over - weather (which can remove people's food supply), disease (non-self-inflicted), and overall crappy stuff that happens to people 'out of the blue' (hmmmm...!) ?

People who believe in the power of prayer, who pray for God to find them a parking space (puh-lease!) or less frivolously, for Auntie's terminal disease to cease being terminal, are happy to award God the credit if the prayer 'works'. What do they think when the parking space doesn't get found, or Auntie dies? That God ignored them? That he doesn't care? That he arbitrarily decided that the parking space should go to someone else who prayed harder, or that someone else should be in receipt of the terminal disease cure that day?

If this is arbitrary, fickle God is one people find strength and comfort from, then I say again, it's all one cruel illusion. How can you find comfort from a being of that kind? If you had a partner or teacher or doctor or friend who treated you like that, you'd dump 'em!

Star - well said!

Tiktok- free will extends over the whole universe, not just people, so things can and do go wrong. Personally speaking I'm not a predestinationalist and so I don't believe that God knows what will happen any more than I do.

The question of prayer and healing is an interesting one. I once saw a t.v. programme where an experiment was conucted over two sets of patients. One lot were prayed for and the other wasn't, and (surprise,surprise) the lot that were prayed for showed a bigger improvement. This made me so angry - not only did this trivialise the whole issue but I don't believe in a God who only heals those who are "in the club". (Nor do I believe in a God who answers prayers for parking spaces - somehow I think that he has more important things to worry about.)

There is a movement in some Christian churches that disease is a sign of sin and that if, after being prayed for a person does not recover, it is because of unrepented sin or flawed belief. I cannot concieve of anything so cruel being thought or believed or being told to someone who is ill or their loved ones, but people do this and then call themselves Christians.

Christian healing is when the peace of Jesus Christ enters a persons suffering and sustains them. It might mean that they can accept a disability or terminal illness, or even the loss of a loved one. When we cry in our pain, God's heart breaks and he will always answer. It might be that we will feel his peace, or that someone will enter our lives with the right words, or we find a book which changes our lives...and for some the ultimate healing is to die and be released.

I believe that it is through God-given gifts that we are able to have so many medical breakthroughs and triumphs. I give thank daily for the skill and dedication of the surgeon - a Muslim- who carried out my c-section and saved the life of my little girl.

Soupdragon- have just remembered that you asked if God would have a different set of priorities for today. There is a modern theologian called John Spong (who is also a priest) who believes that there should be a new set of Ten Commandments. I once heard a priest (incidentally, a woman) describe him as a "prophet for our times." This isn't a point of view that I subscribe to but it is one that some do hold to.

Star, all those things are indeed lovely, I agree, but I'm afraid I can't accept them as proof - or even evidence - of a god. And I don't understand why you would think they were. People in Roman times used to think that their gods ran everything etc, but nobody believes in their gods anymore. I really do think that any god worthy of worship should jolly well make it a bit easier to believe in him/them if the 'punishment' for not doing so is eternal damnation. It's like finding out that you face an eternity of torture for not believing in the Loch Ness Monster (and no, I don't think that trivialises the matter). I think if we punished our children like that for something so unfair, well, we'd be in court and no mistake. Why is a God who behaves so very badly and irrationally worthy of worship? And I have to admit to being thoroughly confused - what is this god who doesn't have any control over anything, from the weather to parking spaces? I think any god I worshipped would have to be a lot more pleansant, more reliable and less insecure about his/her position to be worthy of my time and attention. I still haven't got an answer about why God damns all those who happen not to believe in him. Lots of people disagree with me, as you can see, but I don't want any of them to burn for all eternity because of that. So I must be nicer than god.

aloha - I'm agreeing with all your posts so far.

I don't understand how, if 2 people led identically Good Lives, only the one who believed in God would be saved from hell. What if one person had never been exposed to any knowledge of a god - why are they then punished for it?

I don't understand how, if god is perfect he created evil. Why put 'tests' in your way? Why? He is the creator so he create everything, I take it?

If he didn't, evil was 'created' by someone else. Well, then god is not all powerful, surely. So is he god?

I don't understand the arrogance of your god - why so upset if you don't believe in him, if you have led a good life?

I understand that I am arguing for the sake of arguing here, I really don't mean to offend anyone who believes. Bloss, in particular, is always very respectful in her posts and I just enjoy the discussion.

But, please, please, please can someone tell me what you mean by heaven? I have a born again Chritian friend and we have discussed this before. Her view was that heaven would be where she spent her time in a state of bliss with those she loved. But what if their view of heaven didn't include her?

One more thing, why if God is in the face of my child and in nature, is he also in the face of a paedophile raping a baby? Why is one evidence of God and the other not? Both exist. Unlike my fellow unbeliever Simon, I do think this world and us in it are enough. I don't feel a void that must be filled by God. I believe nature is proof of nothing but the existence of nature, and that's fine too.

Tinker, no-one knows the nature of Heaven as no-one has been there and reported back, so your guess is as good as anyone else's.

As far as hell goes, a few people have argued that if God is so righteous, just and merciful, why does he condemn people to eternal damnation. Well the JW's do not believe in hell for this very reason, but the Church's stance on this (and mine incidentally) is that hell was created by the devil. God does not throw people into hell, they choose to go there by collaborating with the devil. God would never be able to create such a place of despair and suffering, only evil is capable of that. God gives sinners every opportunity to turn back and repent, he forgives everything, although he does not let sins go unpunished, yet these people choose to serve the devil instead and so are creating their own doom. Also God does not 'test' people, the devil puts temptation into people's way, he subjects them to hardship to turn them away from God, and a bloody good job he is doing of it to! For proof of this read the Old Testament book of Job, it helps understand why God 'permits' suffering and why some people seem to have a hard time of it. But no-one goes to hell just for not believing: (John 12:47)"If anyone hears my message and does not obey it, I will not judge him. I came, not to judge the world, but to save it."

Tiktok, God does not 'control' the weather. We have greatly harmed the eco-system over the years and so a great deal many more natural disasters are occuring. But if you say why does God not prevent people from getting killed in hurricanes, you might as well ask why does God not prevent people from falling under buses, it is part and parcel of life, we have to live in harmony with nature, unfortunately we are not and so we pay with the consequences, but God does not think "Hmmm, today I'll give Africa a drought", besides drought is not Africa's biggest problem, there are mountains of grain and rice available, corruption is Africa's biggest problem and God can't do a lot about that.

Yes God is all-powerful, but I said earlier, he made a promise to give us all free-will and not exert himself upon us. He gave us the earth and it's contents to use to our gain. This system of things will not last long, God will put things right in the last days.

As for those people who pray for parking spaces, well they're just sad aren't they? It is nice to be able to talk to God about life's problems, to bring him closer to you in life and you can ask him to interfere with certain problems for you, they may not work out the way you expected them to, but if you have prayed for them, you generally find that when you look back you will see a reason why certain things happened. But God cannot interfere if people don't want him to, so it's no use saying "Why doesn't he cure that little girl of cancer", if the girl doesn't believe in him or ask him, and neither do her parents, then God will not interfere. Even if they do, there may be a bigger reason why she has not been cured and another person has. Her suffering might teach us humility and compassion. Don't forget though that their suffering ends upon death and I've no doubt that Heaven is open to all children.

No doubt this all sounds very circumstantial to non-believers, you may think we are all fooling ourselves, but Jesus's message can be followed by believers and non-believers alike, you don't need an organised religion to tell you that, neither did God say you have to belong to an organised religion. Just be a good Christian and preach your good works to others.

Aloha etc I'm with you on this one. Although I think many of the principles of christianity (and other religions) are sound in terms of some of their moral guidelines (thinking of others etc) I wonder whether religion didn't originate as a useful tool for controlling the masses. It's understandable that we all want to know how we got here and why we are here, but religion doesn't answer these questions for me. I dislike anything as prescriptive as organised religion.

I also can't understand why it is (if I've understood these postings correctly) ok to be homosexual but not ok to be a practising homosexual: is it therefore OK to be a satanist, as long as you're not a practising one?

I'm interested to know whether any Christians here are also feminists. If so, how do you square this with being submissive to your husband and women being banned from preaching? (Sorry if someone's already answered this question).

I describe myself as agnostic since as I understand it an atheist is someone who has studied theology and rejected religion whereas an agnostic is someone who hasn't studied the subject but doesn't believe or not believe one way or the other. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong

Threeangels, don't stop posting. I disagree with you but would still, without hesitation, post to you on another subject if I thought I could help.

Interesting discussion.

Aloha

I have to say that the more that this thread goes on the deeper my belief that we are all that there is and that is enough.

There seem to be plenty of people willing to expound on why god should be obeyed and needs to be worshipped but few seem to want to answer the direct question of why they personally feel the need to do so.

I personally don't have a void that needs to be filled by worship of someone/something but too many of my friends of the years who have been religious have described it as such.

Can't help but think you are making excuses for God, Rhubarb : )

You say many natural diasters are caused or exacerbated by humankind's messing about with the eco-system - and so God can't do much, because it's down to us to fix our behaviour. Natural disasters take place, and have taken place, for all sorts of reasons, but earthquakes and floods or droughts have been there long before we started tinkering with the ozone layer - the guys who wrote the Old Testament put a lot of it down to God's wrath and displeasure, after all. These days, of course, God is reckoned to be a kindly chap who would never dream of doing such horrid things and instead wrings his hands sadly and impotently....hmph.

You also say, 'But God cannot interfere if people don't want him to, so it's no use saying "Why doesn't he cure that little girl of cancer", if the girl doesn't believe in him or ask him, and neither do her parents, then God will not interfere.'

So getting God to interfere depends on you being lucky enough to have parents who pray? And what about the general sort of prayers, asking for medical breakthroughs, or for anyone in pain, which don't actually name names? Don't they count?

You add, ' Even if they do, there may be a bigger reason why she has not been cured and another person has. Her suffering might teach us humility and compassion.'

I think suffering does indeed teach us these things - being bitter or angry with life is no use and of no help to the living. We can often learn from the way others cope with the trials of life. But that does not indicate anything other than the fact human beings can learn, from their experience, what outlook helps them best. I think to imply that this is God's doing and he knows best also implies that we should never seek to 'influence' God by prayer...at best, by praying we are trying to second-guess the divine, and at worst, we are trying to subvert his will.

I'm afraid my lack of belief rests (mostly) on this. Solve the questions of 'why suffering?' and 'what earthly use is prayer?' for me, and I'd start to question my atheism.