Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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SofiaAmes - I don't believe I insinuated that the people in the African countries with high HIV rates were sinners or unnatural. Didn't even think it for a moment. I was simply observing how the disease is attacking people (men) who practice homosexuality, but of course we don't know why, except that their immune systems are being affected for some reason. There also seems to be a high incidence of hepatitis among gay men - once again, who knows why? It seems difficult to say anything that is not considered politically correct, but what about morally correct? Also SofiaAmes, your comment about people "choosing to be guided by books which promote bigotry... etc", makes people who follow Christianity sound as though they have no mind of their own. What about people who are being guided by the world and what everybody else is doing? There is so much positive stuff in the bible which hardly anyone seems to have concentrated on. Maybe another day, far too tired right now.

Aids, as I understand it, is transmitted via body fluids, especially infected blood. In gay male sex, as I understand it, there is a greater possibility of the exchange of blood. No mystery -a medical fact, not God's moral judgement.

Do you assume victims of cholera, leprosy or even the common cold have an improper lifestyle? What about poverty, ignorance and sheer bad luck?

Liamsmum, I hear what you're saying - you condemn the homosexual act not the person. I don't agree with this, but it's not my place to change your view. I just can't agree that Aids is indicitive of God's moral judgement of the gay community.

Ahh ..that first paragraph came out wrong - the main risk of aids is in the unprotected exchange of body fluids, of course. Before aids, how many gay men would think of wearing a condom - a contraceptive?

Blame toddler crawling over me for addled brain.

Liamsmum, you did not just "simply observe" that the incidence of aids was high amongst gay men. You implied that the incidence was high because they were immoral. I was pointing out that there are plenty of other communities where the incidence is high that don't apparently live the same "immoral" life that you accuse gay men of. And you are incorrect when you say that "we" don't know why the incidence of aids is high among gay men. It is generaly accepted among the scientific community (and among most people) that, as tigermoth pointed out, there is a greater possibility of the exchange of blood in anal or unprotected sex. This is also the reason for the higher incidence of hepatitis.
When I expressed my surprise about being "guided by a book"....I should have added (and did originally, but my computer crashed and i've got a pregnancy addled brain) that what disappoints me is that people don't use their discretion and use the positive points as guides and leave behind the negatives as expressions of bygone eras. When I take my guidance from the world around me, I try to follow the examples that are positive and not those that aren't, regardless of how many others do. (i.e.on a very simplistic level just because everyone around me litters, doesn't mean that I have to follow their example).

I'm beginning to feel like a stuck record but...
God does not cause suffering and the fact that homosexual men get AIDS is not a judgement on their "unnatural" lifestyle. If so, why are lesbians the lowest risk group? I am so fed up with the link between AIDS and homosexuality being used to justify homophobia. WHAT about the women who get AIDS through rape, or the chidren born with it? In Africa it is becoming common practise for the priests to sleep with nuns rather than local women as they are less likely to carry disease.

I have gay friends who have been forced to leave the church because of the prejudice of others. They still want to believe but feel unwanted by their fellow Christians and so are rejecting God. And it's heartbreaking.

Before dd's unexpected arrival dh and I hadn't intended to have children, and I know that some Christians regard that as unnatural, too.

I don't know why some people are straight and some aren't , but if two people love each other then it doesn't matter if they are of the same sex. Personally I don't fancy the idea of gay sex but then there's a lot of straight stuff that I don't go in for either. If I were gay, my behaviour would be natural for me. I do think that promiscuity is wrong because it seems to make people feel cheap and empty IME; I know a lot of you will disagree with me on that but I just feel that love is a vital part of sex, ideally.

Disease happens because of the physical laws of the universe. Have unprotected sex and you put yourself at risk. Eat to much cholesterol and you may get heart disease. Drive to fast and you may crash your car. Cause and effect. God does not intend for any of this to happen.

Liamsmum, you are dead right when you say how many positive things are in the Bible. So why concentrate on one tiny part? Do you really want to deny two people the right to share their lives together just because they are of the same sex? Moreover, do you think that is what God wants, that he created gay people in order to make them miserable by forcing them into celibacy?

It seems that some Christians -not meaning anyone in particular here- are obsessed with sex, and what is "moral". And so many non-believers seem equally obsessed with what Christians think. And it so doesn't matter. I have a far bigger problem with the "god-fearing" man who beats up his wife and child than I do with anyone who sleeps around. The important thing, surely, is that we love one another and try to respond to them through that love. For me this means making my gay friends welcome in church and in my home, not telling them that they are perverts.

A friend of mine who attends a church in a trendy part of London remarked to her priest how good it was that he welcomed so many gay men to worship. He pointed out to her that he'd hardly have a congregation if he didn't!

I very much like and agree with your idea that it is behaviour which is right or wrong rather than beliefs.

One more thing - my dd may turn out to be gay, and if so I will love her just as madly and still be as fiercely proud of her as I am now. And if she has girlfriends then they will be just as welcome as boyfriends. Because I love her . And because I don't care who she loves, so long as she does so honestly and truly. And I really hope that she will feel that her dad and I will accept whoever she is, and not ever feel that we are ashamed of her.

Liamsmum - you're not alone! I agree with you. Just call me Mrs Popular (not).

Liamsmum, The reason this 'unnatural' stuff bothers me, is as others have said, homosexuality occurs in just about every animal species in the world. Animals, I understand, cannot sin (as they do not have souls), so clearly what they do, whether you like it or not, is 'natural' as in, occurs in nature (as others have pointed out). Also, there is quite a bit of evidence that some of our gender and sexual orientation is written in the physical shape of our brains. Imagine trying to change your sexual preference from men to women. Tough? You bet. Impossible? Very probably. So why do you think it is any different for gay people? They feel their sexual orientation in exactly the same way you do. Is that unnatural? You seem to imply that any sexual behaviour that does not lead to procreation is unnatural. What about sex between married couples who are infertile? On the Pill? After the menopause? Not all gay men have anal sex, you know. Most of what they do, 'normal' couples do - eg touch each other, kiss etc.
BTW I am very much not a religious person (though I do find all myths, legends, ancient religions and history fascinating and went to a very nice Sunday School as a kid - with fab cream soda and puppet shows!) but my friends do include religious people of very different degrees of conviction (most of whom fall into the 'I think God exists and quite like churches/synagogues etc' category.) Again, BTW I would not dare have such a frank and fascinating discussion with most of them, because of the risk of fracturing a valued friendship. I don't despise people who are religious at all (though I do loathe bigotry and religious fanaticism) and the majority of the people on this thread come across as kind, sincere and questioning souls. Otherwise I don't think we'd all still be here. Good luck with the baby, Bloss!

This is a good place to find out about hiv/aids statistics.

www.avert.org/

Aloha, I am definitely not one of those people who believes that sex should only be for the purpose of procreation. If that was the case, I would have stopped having sex with dh as soon as my son was born, because we are not planning to have any more children. We still do it on a regular basis and the fact that people are able to achieve orgasm through sex (getting right down to the nitty gritty now!), suggests to me that it is meant to be an enjoyable thing. But to do it with every Tom, Dick () & Harry is another matter - the bible says that it should be kept within the sanctity of marriage. I know it sounds SO old fashioned now and not very popular these days, but that's what it says.
Aloha, as far as people's sexual preferences and whether or not they should act on those impulses, if everyone acted on every sexual impulse they ever had, all hell would break loose. You can bet there's a lot of people out there with all kinds of sexual desires but they probably don't act on them.
The difference between people and animals is that animals do not have the same ability to think and to 'reason' as humans do. As someone said before on this thread, the bible was meant as a guideline for people's lives - not for animals. People have their own wills, thoughts and desires and they have the ability to be destructive to themselves as well as to others, hence the reason for these guidelines. If people don't wish to take any notice of them, it's up to them.
Ionesmum, all I can say with regard to gay churches is that they must be reading from a different bible, or else simply ignoring what it says about homosexuality. Having said that, if a person with homosexual tendencies wishes to go to church and worship God, then that is wonderful and of course they should have the freedom to do so, but they would have to somehow come to terms with God's feelings on the subject. If God says that homosexuality is wrong, that adultery is wrong, that murder is wrong, then we can't just change the rules to suit ourselves.
Found this on the Christian Answers Network, which covers just about every subject in the bible.....

"If God had intended the human race to be fulfilled through both heterosexual and homosexual marriage, He would have designed our bodies to allow reproduction through both means and made both means of sexual intercourse healthy and natural. Homosexual anal intercourse carries a high risk of disease, this is recognized in Scripture where gay men are said to receive in their bodies the due penalty for their error (Romans 1:27)."
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another: men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
-Romans 1:26,27 (KJV)
Because such behavior is essentially animalistic, rather than human, sodomites are actually called "dogs" in the Bible. Note the strong prohibition in the Old Testament theocracy established under Moses.
"There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are an abomination unto the Lord thy God."
-Deuteronomy 23:17,18 (KJV)

Liamsmum - can you tell me how you know what God's feelings about gay sex is? Not what St. Paul or Moses says - God. Can't you imagine what it must be like to fall in love with someone only to be told you are a pervert? By Christians, of all people, who are supposed to love everyone regardless and who are not supposed to sit in judgement on others- Jesus makes this quite clear. What will happen if one day your child turns to you and tells you that they are gay? Or do you think that only happens to other people. Or perhaps gayness is something that can be "cured"?

I suggest that you take a look at this website: www.eflgc.org.uk. It's the site for evangelical gay Christians.

This is the Mission Statement of the Lesbian & Gay Christian Movement:

"It is the conviction of the members of the LGCM that human sexuality in all its richness is a gift of God gladly to be accepted, enjoyed and honoured as a way of both expressing and growing in love, in accordance with the life and teaching of Jesus Christ; therefore it is there conviction that it is entirely compatible with the Christian faith not only to love another person of the same sex but also to express that love fully in a personal sexual relationship."

As I said before, I don't know the mind of God. I can only go by what I know of him through reading his Word, through prayer, and through the people I meet - we are called to see Christ in everyone. The gay couples I know enrich the lives of those around them and my life, for one, would be the sadder without them. It is possible that I have got this wrong and that God really does disapprove of homosexuality (although I don't think so). But if I am wrong then I would rather it was because I feel that gay people have as much right to love as I have than be wrong because I took a bigoted view of a line or two of scripture and condemned my fellow human beings for wanting the same things that I have. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I feel very srtongly about this.

Aloha - I don't believe that because animals do something it makes it natural for humans to do it - you can see how this can be interpreted. Animals eat their own young, eat other animal's faeces and eat their mates, none of which we would find "natural" if a human did it. It is because as humans we are capable of love that I believe it is natural for gay people to express that love in the fullest way possible.

I don't know how many Christians reading this are Anglicans, but one of the possible candidates is likely to ordain practising homosexuals as priests. I would be happy to take Communion from a gay priest. I also think that they should be allowed to have a ceremony of vows for their relationships in church, too.

The best information on how God feels on any subject (marriage, children, money, church, ourselves ...) is to read the Bible. Some people obviously feel that the Bible's "authors" have inserted some of their own views. However, all the chapters in the Bible were written down by human hands. Even the words of Jesus were written down by his followers, not himself. So, either you accept the Bible as God's word or you don't. If you dismiss parts of it because you feel they've been embellished by men then really you have to dimsiss the whole lot.

Ionesmum.......!!!!!! I AM NOT sitting in judgment on homosexuals, I am saying WHAT THE BIBLE says about it. Of course I would not reject my son if he said he was gay - he is my son. I would be extremely upset by it, I would probably pray a lot about it, but I would not reject him. I have also had friends who are gay, I generally find that they are warm and have a wonderful sense of humour and they are no lesser "human" in my eyes.

Jesus reinforced the commandments of the Old Testament when he said "I came not to destroy the Law (the OT law), but to fulfill it." How can Jesus and God be the same if Jesus denounces everything that God says??? Jesus doesn't denounce anything that God says, one thing he does do is refer to the attitudes of the hypocrites/Pharisees who go around enforcing the law and think they are holy & religious, but their attitudes are very bad and their hearts are hardened. One of the scriptures I quoted in my last post was from Romans, written by Paul, who was an advocate of the disciples and was, according to the New Testament, chosen directly by Jesus. He made this statement about homosexuality which also concurs with the Old Testament view of homosexuality. If it's in the bible, which it is, and you're choosing not to believe it, then that's entirely up to you. People just do not want to hear what they don't want to hear. I know it's hard!!! I have struggled with different issues from the bible myself, as I'm sure many other people have. But it says what it says. At the end of the day, people have to decide if it's worth pursuing, and if not, they will inevitably choose to live their own way. But I believe there are many, many positive things to be gained from the Christian faith, as I've experienced much of it for myself. For all the difficulty, there are many blessings.

Ionesmum I know how you are feeling on behalf of gay people. But a gay "mission statement" is simply that - something written by them, not agreed to by God. I know how devastating it would be to find that your lifestyle is looked upon as wrong or sinful, and subsequently have to deal with it. To deny yourself something is incredibly hard, all I can say is that God would honour a gay person who really wants to know him and wants to do the right thing in his eyes - he wouldn't condemn them because of their orientation, he would obviously help them through it somehow. No one has all the answers - we just get through life the best way we can, and try to hold to the belief that God is faithful and is aware of every situation we are facing.

OK, this is for those of you who believe in following every word of the OT. Why won't you answer my earlier questions? Do you cut the hair at the side of your head? Do you wear clothes made of mixed fabrics (poly-cotton for example)? Do you ever have sex during your period? Do you consider all of these as sins? Because the Bible very clearly does. If you don't, then you are, I'm afraid, every bit as selective about your Bible as ionesmum. And I strongly suspect that you pick and choose because you don't like homosexuality for other reasons than just religious ones.

This discussion seems to be going nowhere, hence aloha's dredging up of questions she posed a while ago and apparently remain unanswered.

The argument seems to be over whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong in a Christian context. Surely then, in that framework, the answer is unequivocally, that according to Christian teaching, homosexuality is wrong.

The argument in fact has departed from Christianity and is merely people arguing about whether or not homosexuality is wrong according to their own personal opions, and surly, this is a question over which an agreement will never be reached, as some people believe it is wrong and some (most?) believe it isn't.

Arguments about whether or not it's 'natural' are just plain silly, as I think Ionesmum has pointed out. There are countless examples of animal behaviour which would be abhorent to us humans, so it's simply not possible to justify homosexuality on the grounds that animals do it.

I think we also get onto shaky ground when you say that it's part of the person's intrinsic personality makeup (to find the same sex attractive and therefore want sexual relations with the same sex), and therefore it's perfectly ok to fulfil these desires. Many many people are denied something they deeply desire. Just because you love /want something or someone doesn't mean it's ok to follow your heart and go for it.

Ionesmum says "Can't you imagine what it must be like to fall in love with someone only to be told you are a pervert? By Christians, of all people, who are supposed to love everyone regardless and who are not supposed to sit in judgement on others- Jesus makes this quite clear."

Just to respons to a couple of points.

-Firstly, Christian teaching (as has been said countless times in this discussion) is that the SIN is wrong, the actual act, but that the SINNER is still very much loved and loveable. I think I'm right in saying that every person who has stood up and said they believe that according to their Christian faith, homosexuality is wrong, they have all said they have homosexual friends whom they love very much. No one seems to be condeming homosexual people.

-Secondly, as with the 'animal' debate, I just don't agree that if you have innate desires it ok to follow them.

If a person desires (sexually) someone of the same sex, that's ok to act on it?

If a person desires (sexually) all police officers, that's ok to act on it?

If a person desires (sexually) their granny, that's ok to act on it?

If a person desires (sexually) a child, that's ok to act on it?

If a person desires (sexually) animals, that's ok to act on it?

For the record, I obviously absolutely do not regard this list as behaviour of the homosexual community. I am illustrating the point that just because a person wants something, this doesn't, no matter how much we want it, necessarily make it right.

As someone else said ages and ages ago, but again it's forgotten - I might be born with an aggressive violent temper. It's not ok for me to just give myself up to my 'nature', it's something with which I'd have to struggle every day. No one would be arguing the toss over wether it was ok because poor me was born like that.

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With regard to you list Monkey, where there are 2 consenting adults, what is the problem with that?

Tinker, like I said, an argument about homosexuality is one thing, but this, in fact started as an argument about homosexuality in the Christian context. In Christian teaching, homosexuality is wrong. Full stop. It doesn't matter if both parties are consenting or not. According to Christian teaching, it is wrong.

Bloss, coming from such an elequent person, I'll take that as a huge compliment.

Did say that I wouldn't come on this thread again, but I don't like this attacking of Liamsmum. You all have your own opinions, but this thread was titled 'The Bible, Religion and other ....', so why come on it if your main aim is to attack people's views and religions? I happen to agree with Liamsmum.

I'm also fed up with people not reading my posts. What questions regarding homosexuality have not been answered. I gave a quote by Jesus on homosexuality, repeated it later on, but still people think the Bible is against homosexuals. The quote is in Matthew, I can't be bothered to fine the exact reference because I don't think anyone would read it. But basically Jesus said that some men were not born to marry, he implied they were homosexuals, he did not condemn it, just said it as a matter of fact.

I don't particulary like the thought of homosexual relationships but that does not make me a bigotist or a homophobe. I just don't like it. Condemn if you like. But people are being a bit OTT in attacking Liamsmum for voicing her opinions, we've heard your opinions, let other people speak too and respect them for it.

Firstly I want to apologise for any comments that may have upset you, Liamsmum, and also Rhubarb. I may not agree with you but I shouldn't let my temper get the better of me.

One of the things that strikes me about Christianity is its common sense. It makes sense not to sleep around, not to commit adultery , not to steal, not to murder etc. It doesn't make sense to me why two people who love each other cannot fulfil that love simply because they are of the same sex. They are hurting neither themselves nor others. On the other hand, it is painful to be rejected by your fellow Christians, as my friend was, simply because of his sexuality. Monkey, the desires that you list all cause pain of one sort or another. Mutual love between two people doesn't, unless of course one or both of them are married, in which case their sin is that of adultery. I quite agree that we should love the sinner and not the sin, but it all depends on what you consider to be a sin in the first place.

Liamsmum, I don't believe in the infallibility of the Bible. (Scholars now believe that they know which words were said by Jesus and which were not. This doesn't mean that there isn't anything to be learned from those that weren't.) That doesn't mean that I pick-and-choose the bits that I take notice of. I struggle hugely with forgiveness, turning the other cheek and loving my enemies. And I have real problems with material wealth and my own selfish attitude to it.

Liamsmum, one point on which we do agree is that God - incidentally, when I say God I mean the Father and the Son - never fails. It is almost certain that practising gay Christians will have prayed about their sexuality and relationships and come to the same conclusion that I have. This of course raises all sorts of questions, but God answers each of us and we can only do what we can to hear him. As I said before, I might be wrong - I cannot see into the mind of God .

I apologise again for being too opinionated (as usual); I've just seen the pain that this way of thinking can cause and I don't think that is what Christianity is about. Anyway, as Rhubarb says I've voiced my opinions too often, so I think I'd better call it a day.

I really hate arguing.

Yes, but Monkey, as ionesmum has pointed out, the examples you give, generally involve an innocent party being abused, harmed whatever. Consenting gay adults doesn't.

You can state that Christian teaching is that it is wrong, but do you believe that yourself or are you agreeing with it because Christian teaching says so. If you don't believe that yourself, why do you accept the teaching? Or, to expand, how do you reconcile personal beliefs with Christian teachings - there must be some areas that give you cause for conflict? Surely, you can't just accept something because you are told it - how do you deal with that conflict?

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Unless I am the worst Christian on this planet (and going from my pretty ropey past, I probably am), I'm sure that every single Christian has areas of doubts or weaknesses. There are some teachings I have more difficulty with than others, but even those I don't like, I have worked out over the years that I am oh so fallible, but God isn't. He doesn't change His mind when the tide of fashion changes. So His will is unfashionable, and people denounce it. Well, how impressed would you be if God took out popularity poles every now and again to keep in line with the all-important me me me society? Most people would think He was pretty flaky and inconsistent. So in disagreeing and coming to the conclusion that God is wrong, not only are you saying you know better than God, but in fact you'd be critising God if He did ever agree to your version of how things should be.

There are some teachings that are more difficult for me than others, but I also understand that I can't have everything I want all the time - you can't always get what you want. God has given me the gift of my husband - he united me with the most wonderful man, has so far blessed us with 2 wonderful fabulous sons, we are all healthy, happy. But it's not perfect. My husband does not believe. Going to Church is difficult for me. There are tragic divisions within my family. etc etc etc I could stamp my foot and say it's not fair. Me me me.

Imagine you bring your dd/ds a present. You clean for them, iron (sometimes!), prepare meals, interesting activities. Then they moan and whinge they don't like the pudding. They don't want to help clear up, the present you brought them was rubbish anyway.

In moaning and whinging about what a bad deal we have got, then we act like the spoilt brats we would be very upset our children turning into.

How do I deal with problems? Worry, (sin), moan (sin) then eventually it'll get through my thick head to pray. And I am confident in God's love and forgiveness. Unlike me, He is slow to anger and rich in mercy.

Ionesmum, please don't leave, your apology is accepted. I know how easy it is to become emotionally involved in issues like this, it is so easy to hurt and offend on such topics. Far better to have them face to face I feel, as the written word is sometimes very cold.

The first and foremost thing about being a Christian is not to judge. Jesus, the Old Testament and the Apostles told us time and time again not to judge others. So if a Christian condemns homosexuals, they are guilty of committing a sin themselves. I have nothing against homosexuals, I would not dream of upsetting them in any way, nor excluding them just because of who they are. However that does mean that I have to like what they do. There are as many heterosexuals out there whose sexual doings I might not approve of or like. It is not for me to judge anyone's lifestyle or choices.

As good living and decent people we should respect everyone's right to be who they want to be, whether we agree with it or not. I can only apologise for the Christians who take it upon themselves to judge everyone liberally, but do not taint us all with the same brush. There are many atheists out there who are just as judgemental, as well as Mormons, Hindus, etc, etc.

So when a person says that they do not like what someone does, please do not condemn them for it, remember that we are all predjudiced in some way, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone....