Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

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Rhubarb, thank you. I agree entirely with you that we don't have to like everything that other people do, in fact I made the same point as you in an earlier posting. It's because I believe so fundamentally that we should not judge others that it upsets me when gay people are labelled as sinners - as I said, I know a couple who have turned away from God because of the actions of other Christians towards them. The problem is that it is very hard to question someones' beliefs without judging them yourself, which is something that I never intend to do. I really hate conflict. And I am extremely aware of my own failings and struggles, which again is why I don't like to point the finger at others (not that you'd believe it from reading my postings here!)

I've not contributed to this thread thus far as my knowledge is pitifully meagre, despite attending Sunday School etc and I have no strong beliefs either way. But I've been thinking about it a lot and have a couple of questions, which I hope you don't mind me asking.

I've been reading a book about prehistoric times and it set me to wondering where such eras fit into the Biblical scene. Did those people go to hell because they had never heard of God, or as may be the case of the peoples who built Stonehenge, they worshipped the Sun King? What of other religions, Muslims, Buddhists etc? Do their members also go to hell?

Also, does being a non-judgmental Christian mean one cannot take part in the judiciary, such as serving on a jury? Or is that something different?

Hi Suedonim. You mention the Stonehenge era and those who worshipped the sun god. Those people would still have heard of "our" God, but they chose to be pagans. Paganism has been going as long as humanity really, but it doesn't mean to say they didn't know any other ways. I'm afraid that if you know about God and deliberately choose to ignore him, or turn your back on him, you won't see Him in Heaven, but then you won't go to hell either. Hell was created by the devil and basically people choose to go into hell by turning against God and siding with the devil. These pagans would be judged according to what they had done in their lives just as we all are when we die, but certainly turning their backs against God would not stand them in good stead. Your guess is as good as mine as to what happens to them. If you are a Catholic you would believe in Purgatory, where sinners go who are not pure enough to get into Heaven, but not evil enough to join the devil in Hell. They believe that our prayers can eventually free these souls from Purgatory. Others believe they are permanently in a state of limbo. Whatever.

As for being a member of the judiciary. Christians can do this, that involves making a judgement based on evidence, and that judgement must be free from 'all reasonable doubt'. They are not judging that person's lifestyle, they are meant to judge merely the crime they have committed, whether they are guilty or not, how much time should they serve, etc. Jesus told us not to judge without first seeing our own failings, if we are to condemn others, we should first condemn ourselves for our failings. No-one is perfect so really, no-one has the right to condemn others. Christians should merely lead by example and by telling others of the Good News. Jesus also told his disciples not to stay in areas where they were not welcome, so if someone really doesn't want to listen to the Good News, we should not push the subject.

As for dinosaurs and so on. I believe they were part of God's creation, but perhaps because they were incompatible with man they had to go. People say that dinosaurs are not mentioned in the Bible, but God says that he created animals of every kind, he doesn't give a list, so I think we can assume that dinosaurs were in there too.

Hope this answers some of your questions. I must say it's nice to get away from homosexuality for a while!

Rhubarb, you say "Those people would still have heard of "our" God, but they chose to be pagans."

How can you (or anybody else) possibly make that statement? What is your source for the information?

They worshipped the sun (among other things) because they knew they needed it and used to be petrified every winter that it had gone and wouldn't come back - as the days got darker and colder they couldn't know it wouldn't go on like that until the sun disappeared forever. Hence Winter Solstice festivities. (Hence Christmas in late December.) They also used to worship animals, plants etc which sustained their life. Similar rituals happened in most parts of the world thousands of years ago. I wonder why so many parts of the Christian calendar are calculated according to the cycles of the moon?

As I have said before, I believe that Man created God. People gradually moved on from their primitive faiths to a more structured religion but nobody has the right to say that god A is any better than god B or god C, that the Catholic god is better than the Jewish god or the Moslem god or that one lot will go to heaven and the other lots won't. If you believe in a god and that brings you comfort then that is fine but you really can't go around blithely consigning everybody else to purgatory or hell or anything other than the oblivion which, in my belief, awaits us all.

Why were the pagans worried that the sun wouldn't come back after the winter? Couldn't they remember the previous spring, the one before that and all the others that had gone before? I know we're talking about people living a long time ago but they weren't daft - surely they'd got seasons sussed?

They probably could remember but they didn't know it would always be the same. Hard to put yourself in their position of unknowingness (to avoid the word "ignorance", which has connotations for some people) but try anyway.

If we didn't know better, here in Lancashire we might be thinking July was the middle of winter, not summer...we know a lot these days, we have a lot of resources, and take it all for granted.

Think of our years of drought or flood and imagine really NOT KNOWING what it signifies. It helped them to have a god of sun or rain or harvest or whatever, reassurance that Someone was watching over them. It is all superstition, they needed it, we shouldn't really.

I really do keep meaning to leave this thread as I keep upsetting people but it is so interesting...

SueDonim, IMO everyone goes to heaven, regardless of their beliefs. It would be truly unfair if people were condemned simply because they lived before Jesus was born, or because they live as part of a culture that has a different or no faith. I don't believe that ultimately anyone will be able to turn from God because his love for us is so huge it will be impossible. And Rhubarb is spot-on in what she says about the judiciary. I have never served on a jury but I would find certain cases hard, such as a woman caught stealing to feed her children. The evidence may say she is guilty but I wouldn't want to play a part in her condemnation or in her going to jail and her kids going into care. But then that's the sort of thing that not only concerns Christians.

ionesmum - I think that the 'problem' for non-believers, (or one of them anyway) is that Christians don't appear to be completely consistent in their message and appear to be selecting bits to suit their arguments. You believe everyone will go to heaven, others have quite clearly stated that those who reject God won't.

I promise I am going to read back through this thread to find the bits I keep wanting to ask about. I can only glance at it in work and dash off an unsatisfying 2 liner!

As it seems that I am the only pagan to post on this site can I just correct a couple of points please.

Pagans don't 'worship' the Sun. The Winter Solstice festival is not about being scared that the sun will not return, but in fact a celebration that it IS returning (since this is actually when the days start to lengthen again).

Pagans weren't (and aren't) the ignorant masses, but in fact highly intelligent, observant people who celebrate the natural cycle of the earth and stars and give thanks to the earth and sun that give us life.

Sorry, Snugs.

I am going by a book called The Source (I think), by James Michener (?), set in Israel/Palestine maybe 5000 years ago, which I read 25 years ago, so my memory of it is not perfect - but from which I have a positive recollection of their insecurity and worry.

What pagans do now may not be the same as what they did 5000 years ago.

Suedonim, as I understand it, God is a very jealous God, and he says that we are to have 'no other Gods or Idols before Me', so although the heathens were worshipping the sun, moon, etc. they had enough intelligence (as you rightly pointed out, Snugs) to instead be giving thanks to and worshipping the Creator, instead of the created. There is Biblical basis for this in Romans 1:19-20.

Rhubarb, I agree with you on most points but I disagree with your statement that Hell was created by the devil. God created Hell - for Satan and his angels, and he doesn't send anyone to Hell, we make that choice by our rejection of God, unfortunately.

Tinker - like many people I find that there are contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible. All you can do is read and pray and experience life and read some more and pray some more and trust in the Spirit to guide you. It can seem as though we are selective about what we believe. I am an Anglican and the breadth of differing beliefs in my denomination is breathtaking. My priest is a liberal Anglo- Catholic and when he recently baptised a family where the parents were unmarried, some of his local colleagues reacted like he'd sprouted horns and a tail! I have noticed a trend towards a more conservative fundamentalism locally - I don't know if you read in the papers about the priest who banned yoga from his church hall? That was local to us. Personally speaking, I've practiced yoga for years without feeling particularly guilty about it, and I do feel that this can make Christianity seem both petty and silly.

I apologise if I've offended anyone again!

As a universalist I believe that even Satan will be saved.

Janh

I agree, it is perfectly possible that what pagans did 5000 years ago might well have been different, but there is also an awful lot of research that shows that the basic ideas have not changed. James Michener was an author of (very good) fiction.

Since the building of Stonehenge (actually a bad example sacred wise since it has been rebuilt sooo many times) took many years and has been proved to be an astronomical observatory as well as lining up with lunar and solar eclipes, surely it just proves that they knew only too well that the sun and stars were eternal.

dont you think that living by the basis premises that christ taught ( despite the version of the bible, no matter if we know which verses to cite) that it wold be a better place to live? some other religions have the same basics
iam repeating an earlier posting when i say this. we are all intelligent enough to realise that it was written thousands of years ago , in a completely different world - so instead of taking everything in minute detail and over analysing it , isnt it the basic premises - you know - stuff like - be nice to each other, help each other out, dont shun people cos they are different from you, love everyone?

and as if to prove the over analysing point ... the " end of discussion" i was refering to in my last posting was meant for me.. end of my discussion.. end of my thinking (a turn of phrase even)... i was gonna wave mi magic wand and stop you all from discussing it but thought better of it ! oh this last bit wasnt meant literally BTW - i havent got a magic wand - and i cant stop u all from discussing it - obviously
< aaaaaaaaaaaarrgh>!

Nothing wrong with having a magic wand

Custardo, you've just said brilliantly what I've tried and failed to say in all my rambling.

custardo - I don't think anyone disagrees with that (the be nice to people bit etc) it's the 'but if you don't believe in god despite that' bit the gets to some of us.

scuse me a min - but i cant fiure out how to start a new thread! ( dont have many of mi own thoughts as you can tell) help me out please i have an urgent question i want to post!

Clickon Tpoic, click on the topic you want to start thread on, scroll down to bottom of page - should see Start a New Conversation.

Was just going to say that but you beat me to it Tinker fastest fingers inthe North/south wherever

Was just going to say that but you beat me to it Tinker fastest fingers inthe North/south wherever

OOPS not as fast as me though by the looks of things!!

Tinker
just remembered your definately from the north

cant figure it out - am as thick as a donkeys donger! sorry but ty anyway!