Bibles, Religion and other uncomfortable topics

[bloss]

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Bloss reading your post (very well written, by the way!), the scripture came to mind about God saying "My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways." Most people want God to justify why his actions are not in line with their way of thinking, but there's no way we can understand the mind of God because we are carnal and he is not. I know it's extremely tempting to say "God isn't righteous, look at all the suffering in the world, etc etc", but the fact is that we just don't understand everything and we never will. He also says that he uses 'foolish things to confound the wise', so no wonder this kind of debate just goes on and on forever. Because so much does not make sense to us. He asks us to trust him when it comes to things we don't understand and to remember that he is faithful, so I guess that's all we can do.

My point about letting perpetrators of genocide such as Hitler in to heaven was a comparative one. That God loves everyone no matter how evil their acts on earth have been is one position. My problem is that the person who failed to accept God yet lived a normal life and even tried to err on the side of goodness would be denied access to heaven on your reading of events. Clearly then, all sins are NOT equal- failing to accept God into our hearts before death is the ultimate no-no of a sin- not to mention pragmatically stupid!
This doesn't make sense to me.

Heaven Selection Panel: God, Jesus and Peter

Interviewees: Repentant Hitler, Repentant George W Bush, Atheist Homosexual, non-religious 7 year old child, Virgil, lapsed ex-Christian, Muslim.

What would the outcome be here? Obviously only God could really say (should he turn out to exist!) but I think that if some of the arguments on this thread were applied the results would be unpalatable.

I don't really see why Christians need to espouse such arguments. After all, the sending of Jesus to live as a man on earth and be murdered by men would surely have given the creator some insight- had he had none before- into the difficulties of being a little pawn in his creation and showed him that humans have a tendancy to question, rebel etc... didn't young Jesus wander off to argue with the temple elders, disobeying his mother's instructions?

One of the passages in the bible that moves even atheist me, is Jesus' crucifixion and his anguished, questioning cry "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?" Even Jesus, had doubts and crises of faith, then, albeit under the greatest of strain. Surely this reflects the cry of people everywhere? If God there be then do something to make my life more bearable. Few people get a direct answer a la Jesus... but surely Jesus having been there done that would understand a lot of this and sort things out without resorting to hellfire and damnation?

ramble ramble ramble!

Wow, this is a heavy thread. I wish I could be as unflinching in my belief in God (or lack of) as many contributors are here. I am a regular Church goer, have been since I was born, have read and studied the bible but never a day goes by without me questioning the existence/nature of God. Although I do always come back to Him/Her.

Despite belonging to a v. establishment Church, I am often wary of organised religion when I look at the goings on in the world - Northern Ireland, Israel, Middle East etc (I know religion is an excuse in some cases).

Even just with Christianity, all 'branches' seem to put their own spin on it. There are many examples here....

I guess I try (and struggle sometimes) with practicing tolerance, justice and equality and try to if not love my neighbour, then be nice to him/her and non-judgemental.

For those of you who believe homosexuality is wrong, how do you react to your gay friends? And anyone else suffered from crises of faith?

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Sorry Bloss, I wasn't actually directing my post at you personally - just kind of adding some thoughts to what you had already said! I agree with a lot of what you have written and was just adding a 'post script' to what you were saying in your last post, because it reminded me of a few things. (If that makes sense). I question things all the time too, it seems that almost every time I read the bible I wish I could get a more in-depth explanation for something! What's that scripture..?, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding." Very hard to do sometimes...

Thanks for your reply Bloss. I don't really know anyone who shares your beliefs as such, so it was good to hear your thoughts on things. To be honest, I don't have any friends who are interested in debating religion (other than the problems of the Middle East), so this is good for me, I think.

Would you be happy (not sure if this is the right word) if your friend found Jesus, but in a church that accepted homosexuality as mine does (our ex-curate was gay and a fantastic minister)

And I agree with your comment about 'true tolerance'. There are millions of us (believer and non) who would benefit from listening to those words.

Bloss - I think that when people say just do "what's right for you" they usually do mean that they think you are wrong but are just being polite about it. But then that would be construed as lying, I imagine

Having read the rest of this thread I didn't have time for earlier, I've concluded that I'm just going to stick with 'My own personal Jesus' as it were. The one I talk to when things are bad, good and indifferent. It works for me and I hope it works for him

Ok, in my experience with my mother, a Christian is not meant to judge anyone, wether they are Homosexual or otherwise, married, single, living over the brush, with or without children, so why do we still get the religious factions telling us that they are condemmed to a life of eternal dammnation. My mother is a v comitted Christian, but and I have told her, some of her views are far from what I would say is the Christian way.

When I had my 2 children I made the decision after my eldest was christened, my son is not, as I felt that as a human a decision was being made for her at an early age as to what WE thought was the right following for her. In my sons case I will allow him, when he is older to decide if he wants to be christened or join whatever fatih he wants to. Mainly in our area you are either Church of Scotland or Roman Catholic, and to say that there are many different views amongst the COS is an understatement, our local minister is a complete chauvanistic little twat, and our minister where I was married and christened my daughter is a completely different minister. He understands my thoughts when I say I don't need to read the bible, go to church, be seen to be a christian, he knows I swear a lot as well. He does not judge me on that, neither does he judge people of any gender, single parents, I do not feel I have to go to church on a sunday or any other day to speak to god when the same can be done anywhere one may be.

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Bloss, I do not agree with you that homosexuality is wrong - my opinion, in a nutshell, is that no loving and mutually respectful relationship is wrong.

However, I think you have explained yourself very well in your message, and fair enough - that's your belief: you make a clear distiction - you condemn the act while not judging your gay friend for it, leaving that up to God.

I won't say more. I know you have said how exhausting it is to keep this profound and interesting discussion going and to cover all the points raised. Let me assure you Bloss, it is exhausts me just to read it

Oh and Aloha, just a nosy question. I have enjoyed reading your posts, too. How come you know your bible so well when you are such an athiest? Did one lead to the other?

This thread is facinating, even more so for me as a jew. Now I have one quick question here that has aways bugged me, and i have never yet found an answer to. Perhaps you guys can help.

If Jesus was a jew (which I believe is taken as fact by most) why does christianity exist?

This is not a flippent question and is not meant to insult anyone, I am really curious. From what I know (form the jewish prespective) Jesus preached judaism, all his teachings come from that route. As a jew we are taught we are all sons and daughters of god, therefore he wasn't unique in that fact either. So what puts christianity above and beyond anyone elses beliefs? can I go to Heaven? because I believe in god and his word?

Please let me know as like I siad I don't understand most of the arguements here. I am a liberal jew, married to a vauge Christian with two kids that I want to try to explain the whole situation too without saying one is good and one is bad. Please help

For Heaven's sake! If you'll excuse the pun! Why are people still quoting the OT as God's word?????? Most of it was written by male prophets who were homophobic, sexist and everything else - they would voice their opinions thinking that they could get away with it as they were prophets. When Jesus came, he clarified this and so whatever Jesus said, you can take it that it comes direct from God (if you believe he was the son of God). So NO MATTER what St. Paul, Moses, Samuel says, it is what Jesus said that really counts. Sure they have authority to speak as holy men, but they were sinners too. Jesus was NOT a homophobe or a sexist, he did not think adultery was a crime to be stoned about, nor that people should not pick a single crop on the Sabbath Day. If you just read the NT you would see this straight away. Honestly I feel like bopping on the head those who are still quoting bits of the OT as examples of how the Bible is prejudiced and bigoted!

Aloha - my male friends were talking about women who would have one night stands, the ones who were 'easy to pull' on a Saturday night. I just think it is a shame that young women who want to preserve their virginity for someone worth it, find themselves under enormous pressure to lose it by a sex-crazy society. Because I didn't have a string of boyfriends, some of my friends and family thought I must be gay. My own GP would not believe that the reason I would not have a smear test was because I was still a virgin, I had a yellow post-it note stuck on my medical records saying "Refuses Smear Test". I was made to feel 'abnormal' just because I had different moral standards. I didn't want to give my virginity away to any old creep. I went out on dates but most men thought that after the fifth date I should be ready to go to bed with them. I wanted someone who would respect my decisions and who would wait until I was ready. There are that many men out there who would do that now - come on Simon, how many of your male friends would wait six months or more to have sex with their girlfriends? So young women are consenting more freely than they might otherwise.

Anyway, I've given away far too much personal details on this thread so may have to change my nickname again. I just get a bit annoyed when atheists pout on about how Christians should not judge, when they are judging us for being Christians. Why should we have to defend our religion to people who couldn't give a toss one way or the other? Just live and let live will you!!

Crunchie - Christians believe that Jesus was the saviour that the OT talks about. Jews believe that the saviour is still to come. We are all God's children, but Jesus is one with God, so he's a little different. Christians are now waiting for the second coming of the saviour, whereas Jews are still waiting for the first. These are the major differences. So the NT does not mean much to Jews, they still work on the old one.

No-one has the right to say who will or won't be going to Heaven, my guess is that a lot of so-called Christians won't make it, and people from other religions will. Just do what your conscience dictates and so long as you know why you believe in what you do, then you'll be ok. That's all anyone can do really.

Bloss, no point really, but as a Christian how can you judge someone because of their behaviour, and conduct in life. I have read your posts with a lot of interest as you come across very clearly, and not like my mother at all! and that is not an insult I can assure you

Yes the COS seem to have very mixed views on religion, quite a lot of the "Wee Free Kirk" in some areas.

Rhubarb - I haven't come across anyone here who doesn't give a toss about your religion. They may disgaree with you but that's hardly the same
thing. I do find phrases like 'give my virginity away' odd. It's as though it is not for the female to enjoy but for the bloke to take. You don't have to respond at all on this, I fully understand how, if you wanted to remain a virgin, that may be difficult. But if a bloke wasn't going to respect your choice he is clearly not right for you.

Anyway, we'll discuss this in more detail on the Northern meet-up (Joooooooke)

Just out of interest (I've not taken part in this thrread because, although a Christian for many years, I find it hard to articulate and others are far more eloquent). But why are people suddenly singling out the CofS for especial blame in being incconsistent. Is it just because you are in Scotland (as I am). From my own experience almost all denominations are wide and differeing in their take on things, my own fave for this being the good old CofE!!

Aloha - the God I worship isn't cruel, or a bigot (how can he be when he gave his son for me?) but people have done and do cruel and bigoted things in his name. He loves us all equally and beyond measure. I did give a few thoughts on Paul earlier- my belief being that he often allowed his own prejudices to get in the way of God's message.

Crunchie - the reason that there is a difference between Jews and Christians is the Christians regard Jesus as God the Son i.e. God came to earth and lived as a human being. Jews still regard Jesus as a prophet, and, as Rhubarb says, are awaiting the Messiah. Personally speaking I believe that everyone will go to heaven.

Rhubarb - well said!

Monkey - I should add re. my dh that it has taken us 15 years to reach this point and he still doesn't discuss the service or read th eBible! What I found really useful was to join a study group that meets once a week. You might be able to find one on-line.

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Tigger, to add to Bloss' posting about judgment, Paul does specifically say that it is not his (and by the same token, not our) business to judge those outside of the church (ie. non-believers in Christ) - only God will judge. But as Christians we are entitled to judge our fellow Christians. In fact, most of the NT is actually letters written by Paul and others to Christians - not unbelievers - the NT Christians were babies as it were in their Christian life and needed to be put straight on one or two things - sexual immorality, would you believe! - So it would be pretty hypocritical of the church to judge those outside without first putting its own house in order. As has been said before (and I'm probably sounding like a stuck record now) all these things are just symptoms of the main issue of rejecting God. But it is a sad fact as you say that some so-called Christians and even Ministers criticize unmarried mothers, etc. when they should really be telling them that Jesus loved them so much he died for them.

I also used to to be very confused by the many denominations within the Christian church, but I now feel that as humans we are so diverse, as long as a church is true to the Word of God and preaches the gospel of salvation, it doesn't matter whether they wear hats or not or sing hymns or choruses or whatever. And you are right, of course going to church doesn't make you a Christian, or if you are a Christian then better than a Christian who doesn't. The church isn't the building anyway, it's the people. God is like the Martini ad - any time, any place, anywhere!

Rhubarb

The number of male friends that wait 6 days let alone 6 months can be counted on one hand.

I can only remember one couple that waited till they were engaged and living together and both of them were virgins.

All the rest of my male friends, unless looking for a long term relationship, would try it on on the first date and if they got no where then give up and move onto another woman if they could.

Unfortunately I have a pair of brothers that in their earlier years did not help this impression of the sex crazed society as they and a group of friends regularly had contests to see how many women they could sleep with in a set time period.

For myself though I have been on dates knowing I wasn't going to get lucky but still went as I had a good time and enjoyed the ladies company.