This is my pledge to Yorkiegirl ....

[moaningpaper]

This is my pledge to Yorkiegirl .... (well to my family really)

I WILL swallow my horror at the whole wife thing and get married in the next 12 months so that my family has more legal protection.

Who wants to join me?

Message withdrawn

I went to the county court place today. It's like a customs office.

"Erm, I need some forms about civil marriage." I spluttered to the armed guard behind the desk.
"Hahahhaha you won't find anyone here after 4pm love." (It was 4.10pm)

hmmm

so a civil marrage entitles the couple to recieve particualr benefits in the event of one of couples death which would nt be available should we just be living together with children?

Yes strawberrymoon

This is quite a good website explaining the difference between married and cohabiting couples' rights

thankyou..we never 'agreed' with marrage in church as we dont 'go' to church but if civil ceremony is different??..ill rad up andmention it to dp..thanks again

Thanks for the link MP - I'd missed that thread completely! Still not convinced about the reasons not to do it though - but then neither dp or I have traditionally been "the wife". I think (a) deciding to have children and (b) getting our first joint mortgage 3 years ago were way more scary decisions than doing the civil partnership thing, to be honest. Even without marriage, once you've got kids and/or property together, the whole thing would be horribly messy if/when any kind of split or separation happened.

Actually the thing that scared me the most was moving to Manchester which meant I became the sole wage earner for the family - up until that point and for 11 years, we'd earned almost equal salaries, but for the last 3, I've been the breadwinner - utterly terrifying - for both of us! The civil ceremony was just a way of giving us a legal standing as a couple and having a lovely day. It was that change in our circumstances that's lead as well to dp being a bit more of the traditional "wife", but I reckon our housework duties are still fairly evenly split. Isn't it about the way your relationship works before marriage - I can't believe that getting married would change a relationship that was based on both people being on an equal footing, equal respect etc.?

I think, for me, its all the cuturally accrued 'stuff' around marriage that I don't like. Its other people's view of it, not mine. On holidy with ILs and ended up in argument with FIL where the fact of our not being married came up in an oblique way. He made it plain that I was a second class citizen in the family because we weren't married and that when it came down to it my opinion/view counted for nothing (we were arguing over the fact dp's brother had, many years ago, made us legal guardians). Its that kind of attitude that puts me off. I have been with his son an age, I have given them a much loved grandson, but I'm still not quite acceptable...

Can I ask whether any of those who wish to cohabit in a stable relationship but are anti marriage felt the same way about having to register their child's birth, receive a National Insurance Number, get a Passport or go out and get a piece of paper that entitles them to drive a car?

Have you made a will? Just another 'piece of paper'. Worthless and meaningless if life works out ok and you both survive until your children are adults, but it makes a hell of a difference if you haven't got one and one of you dies.

Personally I consider myself very much an individual and I hate the 'nanny state'. I was very very happy for 8 years cohabiting until I got pregnant (planned if it makes a difference), but when I found out about the totally different legal status of a husband & wife as opposed to man & woman who 'just happen' to live together and have a child together it seemed like a good idea to formalise the arrangement. I have no doubt that we'd still be exactly the same family unit if we hadn't done so, but it's good to have the peace of mind.

ps Blackdock - your in laws sound awful! Maybe you have an aversion to marriage because it would link you to them?! When dh and i bought our 1st house (long time b4 marriage) I said to his mum that now he was my 'common law husband' did that make her my 'common mother in law'? Fortunately she shares my sense of humour. I've always got on really well with her - FiL is a bit crusty, sometimes, but he means well!

Oops - Blackduck - sp

Fortyplus, I have all those other documents. But the marriage certificate does, for many of us on this and the other threads, feel very different. As several people have said, if we viewed it as "just" an insurance policy, we'd do it.

But when you take out an insurance policy or make a will, you don't get all your family and friends and society suddenly seeing you differently, and congratulating you for reaching a higher state of being, achieving the ultimate success as a woman, and moving into a more "moral" relationship. all of which happen when people get married.

And the Law Commission and government and House of Lords do talk about cohabitation and divorce laws in terms of morality, which shocked me when I found this out. One of the major reasons why cohabiting parents do have few rights is because of worries that changing the law will "undermine the sanctity of marriage". So even at the government and legal level, marriage is seen as more than just a bit of paper, which is why there are still strenuous measures to coerce people into getting married rather than amend the law to suit people's views on this matter.

""I married my husband because I love him and want to be with him forever."

This kind of statement just makes me want to throw my pants in the air and scream."

oh just fuck off

I didn't say it originally but I do believe it. What the HELL is wrong with loving someone? Are you idealistically opposed to that as well?

and as for being insecure, thanks for that. Glad that you've met EVERY FUCKING MARRIED PERSON IN THE WORLD before coming to that conclusion

I don't have enough swear words to cope with this

fcuk 'em caps

fcuk 'em all

jesus boris thank god you're here

do you have a paper bag I could breathe into?

Ill rub your back a bit

Then make you a cuppa and some cake

Then we can say

"fuck 'em all"

ooh goodie

have to check if my husband will let me out of the house first though, I'm very busy this morning individually handwashing all his socks

Dont forget to put 4 sugars in his tea, but dont stir it

He doesnt like it sweet

Err ladies, can we take this outside please.....

Seriously though, Yorkiegirls thread deserves a bit of respect...

If you are making tea though boris.....

FP my ILs aren't that bad, honest, and no my aversion is not really to do with being related to them, usually I get on fine with them, but this just brought it home to me that they do see me and dp as different to their other chidren.....

Cap - I think MP was responding to the point that all unmarried people are infantile - to which, have you met them all? could equally be asked...

Fennel - you just so sum it up for me....

sorry VVV

I got a bit cross and Boris was calming me down

we won't be doing it again

[humble]

Have started a tea room thread....

Oh dear! I think that the last few posts or so have demonstrated exactly what this is all about. When people say, "if you want the rights, why not just get married," they are not taking into account the fact that people have very different perceptions of marriage. Many people get married because that is the way they want to show their love and commitment - nothing to do with legalities. The marriage proposal is a defining point in the realtionship - a declaration of wanting to be together. And I believe that is the most prevalent, traditional view of marriage. But co-habitees have a different way of showing love and commitment (the 'defining' moment in my relationship with dp was deciding to move in together) and often resent having to enter into marriage - the partnership (with all its connotations and associations that not everyone sees as positive) that some people choose to define their realationship - purely to gain legal rights.

That's why I don't understand it when people go on about how giving co-habitees equal rights will undermine the sanctity of marriage. Surely forcing people into marriage for legal reasons rather than religious/moral reasons is more likely to do that?

And going back to a point made much earlier, I am the child of unmarried parents, still together after nearly 30yrs. I never once as a child thought they would split up, never once wished they were married. I have never once dreamed of the white wedding because I have grown up with the example that it is not a necessary part of a loving, stable and committed relationship.

Thanks, fennel It's really interesting to hear your views.
I think I must be a very pragmatic (and unromantic?) person - I wasn't bothered about marriage but as there was a possible future tangible benefit dh & I thought we'd go for it.

I remember feeling very strange the first night we slept in the 1st house we bought together - that felt like a major committment to dp as he was then. Having children also seemed like a huge step. Getting married seemed trivial in comparison.
I don't think our close friends thought of us any differently - but they enjoyed the party!

Both sets of parents were really pleased that we weren't going to have a child 'out of wedlock' YUKYUKYUKYUKYUK how I hate that expression. I'm a bit contrary so when they said that we very nearly cancelled the wedding just to annoy them, so I know where you're coming from!

I have friends who were together 20 years with 2 boys. They got married secretly in the summer holidays. I did say 'congratulations' when they told me and probably some twee remark about 'making an honest man of him' because what else do you say when someone tells you they've done that? It's tricky - I don't think of them any differently - to me the fact they lived together and had the children made them a family - not the piece of paper. I just think it was sensible of them to go through the formalities - they had the 2 boys at the ceremony plus mums & dads and siblings, but no friends. They didn't want to make a big thing of it.
I think the 'moral' issue is difficult, too. To me that's tied in with religion and I'm not a religious person. Before dh & i got married it did annoy me if people made remarks about 'living in sin' and other blokes at work would make a pass at me even though they knew we lived together. That wouldn't have happened if i'd had a ring on my finger, i'm sure! Talking of which, I didn't wear a ring or change my name at first. But once ds2 was born (2 years after we got married)i felt so linked to the children that i was happy to have the same name as THEM.
I certainly wouldn't have got married just to conform to society's expectations. When we bought our 1st house you could get 2 lots of tax relief if you WEREN'T married, which seemed like a good reason not to be! By the time we had children tax relief on mortgages had been abolished, so it was a good idea to get married and benefit from the enhanced legal status of the relationship. So the way i look at it we've just 'played the game' for our own benefit.
I do agree that you give yourself a 'label' by conforming to society's expectations, but it doesn't worry me if other people think it's too conventional and boring. Maybe some of the people shying away from marriage would be adversely affected in some way - feel more tied down, be pressured into more housework etc. It didn't happen to me but i can see why others would want to avoid that.
So I think 'immature' was a poor choice of words on my part - sorry to those who were offended by it. And i would agree that some insecure, immature people would want the 'commitment' of marriage.
Isn't MN great? Brilliant to hear all thes polarised views.