what are your feelings on the MMR jab??

[doodypud]

My DD has an appt for her jab on the 3rd of April, i am still really concerned about the possible links with Autism, has anyone else had concerns or any bad experiences?

Then the NHs could give me singles at a fair price... say £30 per jab. Surely they would profit.

Then there's all the kids who have been permanently disabled or required long hospital stays b/c of pneumoccocal meningitis. Cannot IMAGINE the cost in terms of lost wages and disability payouts.

As for the ones who pass away, their lives are priceless.

But not according to the NHS. Nope. They were all worth £35.

They won't have that jab out until next year at the earliest.

"A study in 1999 has shown that children that experienced concurrent natural measles (or single measles vaccine) and natural mumps infections within the same year are at a significantly greater risk of later inflammatory bowel disease. No idea whether that was followd up or what the current opinion is on that."

Jimjam's I have wondered about this to myself - if there is some correlation with children with a catastrophic genetic sensitivity with the diseases themselves? If that is then are these children vulnerable to the jab and the diseases in the same way? If they never got the jab but got the disease would they develop the same symptoms? Does that make sense? But either way, tragically, the child in in exactly the same position of risk with either the jab or the disease.

jimjams that 1999 study might be what I was thinking of.

Expat, I know it sounds heartless, but fopr the NHS to work things have to be workied out like that. If they weren't it wouldn't exist.

My DS had measles at 2 and a half and he was pretty bad. We hadn't vacinated cos he is allergic to egg and were told it wsa best to give the vac in hospital incase of anaphalxis. Well we stalled as you can imagine and while debating our options he caught measles. I can understand the desire to eradicate it but I do believe there are some kid it does not suit.

My DS's allergies I believe are as a result of the DPT (hospitalised after with severe reaction) so I was cautious. DD will have them but will do singles (still haven't finished her DPT yet and she is 14mths. Some childrens do get vacine damage and if you can reduce the risk why not.

My DS's life could have been at risk if we had given the MMR yet I don't blame the parents with perfectly healthy babies who don't give the jab. Infact I spoke to the woman wose sonws the first case in the nursery and she worked for the National Audit Office. SHe had been concerned by the evidence she had seen in her line of work.

Read the paper published yesterday monkeytrousers- link in SN. Thimerosal appears to screw up the development on dendritic cells in mice. Next step to look at autistic children. Wakefield's current theory is that thimerosal does something - first hit- with a second hit coming from a virus (live or vaccine). Which incidentally is what appeared to happen to ds1 (not surprising really the family history if choc a block with autoimmune conditions). Hornig's paper also showed that it interfered with the devlopment of neurones in strains of mice predisposed to autoimmunity. The interesting thing I've always thought is that the increase in rates of autism does appear to coinicide with the introduction of the MMR- you can see that on any graph, but another thing that happened at the same time was that the timing of the DTP was altered dramatically from being given over the first year to being given wham bam at 2,3 and 4 months. Lots of research is hinting that autistics do not deal with mercury very well. Suddenly you may have had susceptible children overloaded. (simple view- it'll be more complicated than that).

Interestingly mumps virus apparently alters the permeability of membranes- - over permeability of membranes is a big feature a subgroup of autistic children (again includsing ds1). Especially those who have no autism in the family but lots of autoimmunity. Trouble is the immune system is so very complicated, it's hard to draw up a model when the functions of everything is not known.

tatties- that study says something different though - it says its best not to give them all at once.

I have to say that the DOc at A&E told me I was right not to give the Vac. In their experience children with allergies turn up in A&E after the VAC in a much worse state than DS (DS was really bad at this stage so I can only imagine how bad these kids must be).

Also with measles the Doc of old knew that you should give a lot of orange food (I think it has Vit A) to measles patients and this reduces the risk of enceph sp? considerably. This is what is done in countries where there is no vac programme.

monkeytrousers- if they got the disease would they be at the same risk.

Well that's where it goes grey- yes, and no- there is a big link between rubella in very early pregnancy (5 weeks) and autism, and also between measles in infants and autism (will search in a mo).

BUT in the past it was unusual for infants to get measles as they had antibodies from the mother.... now.......??? I do not understand why boosters in late teens have not been introduced - I am waiting for the epidemic in young adults.

Also there's the role thimerosal plays in all this. Without priming by thimerosal in the DTPs the same risk may not have been there either for later live vaccines or the disease itself.

wow drosph- I want that doctor!!! yes whenever I think that the ds's may have been in contact with measles I start shoving vitamin A into them

Which brings me onto another point- lots of autistic kids have very low levels of vitamin A for some reason. It has been suggested that that is behind the reason for their abnormal response to vaccine strain measles.

"I maintain that every single person on here would put their child's welfare above little johhny down the street. And if they didn't they are imo failing their child."

I completely agree, Jimjams. And those of you who think we should vaccinate for the sake of other people -- imho you have been taken in by propaganda. The argument makes no sense. Why are we not all having vaccines to protect people with compromised immune systems???? If this argument really held any water the government would be suggesting we should all have flu jabs/MMR jabs to protect people with heart disease/having chemo, etc. It's just a device used by the government to make people feel guilty if they choose not to vaccinate.

In my view, the individual should always be the only consideration when deciding whether to sign your child up to an invasive procedure. My children will always be my main consideration because I'm their mother and it's my job to put them first, especially when I have to make decisions on their behalf that have to do with their human rights! And I make no apologies for it.

Rant over.

Incidentally we gave ds1 vitamin A supplementation for quite while (about a year) but it had to be in the form of retinol- so cold liver oil. When he was on it he stopped all the weird sideways eye stuff that he did (vitamin A is used in the eye). We then couldn't get him to take the cod liver oil - he can sniff it out anywhere- and now all the weird eye stuff has come back again- he spends a lot of time eye stimming (doing funny eyes as we call it).

thanks lockets

You don't have to make any apologies Socci, you're right, every parent will always concentrate on the safety of their child but also paradoxically you may be putting your child at a greater risk of illness, never mind Johhny whoever down the street. If MM or R become common once again, the children who are unvaccinated are the ones who will be more at risk. That's not propaganda, that's just maths.

going to look at that report now JJ

I have taken ds for his first jab a few weeks ago and had no side affects from the jab.

As for the risks of Autism, I personally see the risk as small. Think it is up to to the parent/guardian to make their own mind up. I wasnt going to let the media or anyone else influence me.

I think if you believe it's a good idea to have the majority of the population vaccinated against certain illnesses (is it 95% you need to avoid an epidemic?) then you should of course also vaccinate your own little Johnnie. So far the majority of the population DO vaccinate their children so it's relatively risk-free to choose not to vaccinate your child.

I disagree monkeytrousers on the basis that it really isn't that simple. I am not against vaccinations altogether in all circumstances but I am very much against the way we are pressured into mass vaccination. Of course, you only have two choices - have them or don't. I could not catagorically say for certain that she won't get any diseases (but I wouldn't be able to say that if she had been vaccinated either) but I have made the decision that I find easier to live with. I always felt that I shouldn't have vaccinated dd1 for reasons I can't really explain. But as far as I'm concerned, vaccines, their safety and effectiveness are still very much an unknown entity so the lesser of two evils is to leave well alone, for now anyway.

I agree, we're all in the same boat and have to weight up the pros and cons of things. There are no guarantees in anything, only probabilities. I'm just playing the odds.

Bu that's the point isn't it monkeytrousers- your odds are different from mine. Risk factors are individual. All anyone is trying to do is ensure that their children reach adulthood able to live their life independently.

It can sound smug and self-righteous when people criticize those who choose not to vaccinate because all too often (and this is in my RL experience, not talking about anyone on here) they do not know what it's like to have a child with a disabilty. You are very much on your own and the implications for the future can be devastating for everyone concerned. Contrary to popular belief, "they" (who are they?) don't do wonders for children with autism these days. In fact they don't do anything much except shrug their shoulders, let you get on with it and leave your child to a bleak future.

While I don't attribute my daughter's condition to vaccines directly, I do know what the implications for her future are, and for that reason I am very cautious about any triggers that could affect dd2, both for her own sake and because of the implications for us - having to find a way to get thousands of pounds together just to give her a hope of even trying to live something like a normal life.

One thing I know for sure is that those who preach about the good of the community will not be knocking on my door offering solutions and help in such an event.

I don't mean to sound bitter - I'm just trying to point out is that the stakes are high.

Socci, that's what I mean, no one would do any different when it comes to their child, and they shouldn't be expected to. But there does have to be at least an acceptance of the structures that allow of those decisions - and they depend on everyone being community aware at very least - but since the Thatcher years, that mindset had been slowly eroded. Ther is a middle ground.

well I wasn't criticising anyone for their choices, nor underestimating anyone's experience of having a disabled child. an area in which I am not without (some, limited) experience. I was answering the OP.
I am utterly unconvinced, having considered the research, that there is any link between MMR and autism. I was pointing out that there are risks to not having the MMR, for your own child and for other people.
I would have thought that is a fairly uncontentious point. It is not to say that someone else's assessmet of their own risk is wrong, to point out that there are other rsks too. and belittling the risks of the diseases themselves helps no-one's argument, imo. As MT says, there is a middle ground.