Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

I think diligent parents need to teach their children (of both sexes) self defence and situation awareness. Part of this message is to tell them (without scaring them witless) that violent assaults and rape happen, that criminals are out there and that attacks can happen on anyone.

Ignoring this, on a belief that you can do nothing to avoid looking vulnerable seems to me to be taking the debunking of rape myths too far. Who knows what goes through a predator's mind in victim selection? But though I agree that nothing is 100%, I do not want my DCs to be the 'softest' targets around. The common sense messages of self-protection are too important to overlook.

This isn't an either/or in terms of rape myths, it's about what parents can do to equip their children to defend themselves.

I haven't said that those are the only situations in which you should be rape aware.

Librarians, I would tell my sons not to walk home alone. I don't think it's specific to preventing rape.

No offence, but texting someone when you're home wouldn't stop you being attacked on the way. Being in a group might.

Itsall: ok this is a genuine attempt to answer your question (and in your hypothetical situation I too would be worried sick, though more about acquaintance rape than stranger rape, largely because I'd worry about a rapist taking advantage of a 14 year old's naivety). The trouble is, where do you draw the line? Is it ok for me to go out dressed to the nines, so long as I don't have a drink? Can I have a few drinks if I'm suitably modestly attired? What if I really want to go out and pull an attractive man and want to be as attractive as possible myself, with a view to having consensual sex (entirely hypothetically, I add, I'm a rather rumpled peri-menopausal mum in real life)? When I was a student, should I not have taken a bar job because I'd have to walk home alone at night? Should I have taken a taxi? (Counterproductive, would have used up all my earnings). What about John Worboys, maybe taxis aren't such a good idea? Maybe I should just stay in my house in seclusion. And even that wouldn't help - women get raped by their live-in partners. Once you start putting the onus on women to behave a certain way, where does it stop?

The looniest piece of advice I ever heard was some official police spokesperson, after that poor woman was stabbed to death waiting for the AA on the hard shoulder of the motorway. He said women should stay in their cars with the doors locked - despite the fact that I think statistics show that vehicles only have to be stationary on the hard shoulder for about half an hour before they run a 50-50 chance of being hit by another vehicle. So basically he was saying "run a very real risk of being in a fatal accident caused by another vehicle to avoid a miniscule risk of being stabbed to death by a crazed psychopath."

"Ignoring this, on a belief that you can do nothing to avoid looking vulnerable seems to me to be taking the debunking of rape myths too far. "

Very well put.

My DD1 rides the Paris metro regularly and I advise her not do do so in mini skirt and low cut tops. In fact I don't notice many women who do this. She has had advances even dressed in jeans and t-shirt so now she understands. I do defend a women's right to dress as she wishes but this is a common sense thing and I said that there are certain circumstances where she should avoid drawing unwanted attention to herself and this involves clothing when she is travelling alone. I also tell her to speak french (which is accentless) not english so again she doesn't look like a tourist.

She recently yelled at her sister - "you cannot go on the RER dressed like that".

I shall be telling my daughters never ever, under any circumstances, to go on a date with a man, or to be alone with a male friend.

That should keep them safe.

I think the biggest favour you can do any young person (male or female) is to teach them to walk and behave confidently and alertly in public spaces. They need to know what to do if someone appears odd, threatening, is paying them the wrong sort of attention, and to act assertively and proactively rather than walking faster with anxiety levels rising. They need to be able to read a map and always know where they are so they are not relying on someone else's sense of direction. I don't think messages about not going out in x clothes or at y times are at all helpful - they just serve to make girls feel more vulnerable than they need to, and the more vulnerable someone feels, the more obvious a target they make themselves.

I think its a bit of a red herring to pick up on the clothing thing in isolation, when its really about being aware of yourself and your environment and your capacity and your options/exits etc. Being conscious of the fact that you are in impractial clothes to get away from a dogdgy situation can help you have a defence plan, doesn't mean DON'T WEAR HEELS, just be AWARE of yourself

I had a toothless, stinky old man (probably very pissed also) leering at me on the Paris metro when I was there with DH. Had to move down the train too stop him grabbing at me. Ugh.

Never happened on the Tube, always felt safe on there, on popular routes anyway. Not sure why, perhaps they have better security?

Rapists exist
There are measures women can take to lessen their vulnerability to rapists
Ergo we should, as responsible mothers, make our daughters aware of those measures

Look lets just take the rape out of this.

Do you teach you CHILDREN (boys and girls) how to stay safe and avoid trouble, of any sort- yes..... then just do it!

All my kids know not to walk down alley ways, not to sit in a train carriage when they are the only one etc etc

They all know not to have so much alcohol their judgement is seriously impaired and to go out in a group of people they really trust.

Actually my SON is the one I fear most for- tall, good looking and a bit gormless at times- he just sticks out as the one who will get thumped (and he has been assaulted at a bus stop just for standing for a girl who was being harrassed by kids from another school, he's also been strangled on the bus by a random stranger!) .

Yes I prefer my girls not to go out in a bikini in town or what ever , but actually they wouldn't anyway!

THey all know not to get into a cab they haven't ordered and where the driver doesn't say "taxi for X" (unless its a black cab)

Did anybody ever see that film Taken with Liam Neeson where the girls got into a cab at the airport in Paris with a sexy young frenchman who looked really plausible and then they were kidnapped and sold into the white slave trade. DD does regret that I watched that one!

Agree with Quodlibet. The last couple of times I have been (minorly) sexually assaulted I was 'modestly' dressed and stone cold sober. I don't think the clothes one's wearing make as much difference as people seem to believe.

'but being in a group might' no one lives my side of town. And going in a group means someone always gets home last.

The time I was most frequently sexually assaulted was in school when I was 13/14. Boys snapping bra straps, grabbing breasts in the corridor, grabbing my bottom, putting their hand up my skirt on the bus. Little scrotes.

Librarians, I'm not really sure how that negates my point. You're only giving reasons why you can't walk home in a group. I'm not telling you what to do.

Yes, how does walking home in a group work? Unless you all live at the same address, surely the last person still has to walk home alone?

So what tips are there to avoid being raped in the middle of the day then

my driving instructer was an ex policeman, he used to regularly tell me off about my safety habits.
He said that the most risky time was walking home from work time, and I should stop walking alone through the gorgeous park between my work and home at 5/6/7 and be most aware at my doorway when fiddling for my keys.

He said never to wear headphones on the way to or from work and have keys ready before turning into your drive

BUT I got a wierd vibe from him n all

Does it cheddar? Do you have stats to back that up or is it just your opinion that you are more likely to be attacked in a group than if you are by yourself?

I suppose when I think about walking home in groups I'm remembering nights out in uni or walking home from work at the bar. There were always a few of us going to the same place or staying over in each other's houses or else there was a driver who would take us home. (sometimes me)