Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

*Wheezo on Tue 03-Jul-12 23:51:42
With regard specifically to dress and following on from Itsallgoingtobefine perhaps look into a full length burqa for the DDs? Anything else could be construed as leaving your doors and windows open. After all it's not like rape ever happens in Saudi Arabia where women know how to dress modestly. It's tricky though because unless men are also wearing burqas I somehow feel that potential rapists will know someone wearing a burqa probably has a vagina, in which case a burqa is just the same as leaving your doors and windows open but drawing the curtains all the way round the house. The question is how do you stop a burglar from even knowing your house exists? Jeans appear to be the most commonly worn piece of clothing by rape victims so definitely no jeans at a minimum.

Ruby I know it's difficult but stranger rape is nowhere near as common as date rape so really how do you police this? Chaperone your DDs on every date until they are how old? Never get in a black cab because your cab driver could be a rapist? Never get a mini cab because your mini cab driver could be a rapist? Never let a male friend walk you home because he could be pretending to protect you from other rapists when his intention is to rape you? Never wear jeans?

We only have a DS and I tend to think we as parents probably have more control over reducing the risks of your DDs being raped by me and his dad doing our utmost to ensure DS grows up not to be a rapist and that starts with him respecting women and girls as his equals. One less rapist would have more effect on reducing your DDs risk than your DDs modifying their behaviour to the nth degree in order to avoid mythical situations which 'increase' their chances of being raped.*

EXCELLENT post, thanks, Wheezo.

Other than not drinking so much you're completely wasted (a general safety thing and who'd want to get that drunk anyway) I don't see how any of those are going to actually help them not get assaulted. And the alcohol one is rather iffy too.
Are you talking assault generally or sexual assault/rape. Take a look at the rape myths.

Was that directed at me librarians?

In order for it never to make a difference you would need to be saying that no assaults or rapes ever take place when someone is very drunk/walking home alone/went off with someone they didn't know. Obviously this does not cover all situations which is why I said it won't eliminate all risk but even if it reduces the risk of attacks that happen under those particular circumstances then at least it's something.

Not it wasn't bumbley - I was replying to the OP.

IMO you would be doing the right thing by telling your daughters how to avoid situations.

Yes, we should be able to walk down a dark street at midnight in high heels and a mini skirt and drunk without it being attacked, but sadly it happens.

My Mum taught me that yes women should be able to wear what you want, however if you dress in certain ways people perceive you to be something. That doesn't just go for being attacked, but for dressing smart to an interview rather than turning up in jeans and a t-shirt.

I think it's important to highlight the risks, but in a sensible way and discuss both sides of the argument.

The same goes for accepting drinks from strangers too, yes it could be innocent, but why take that chance?

Cheddar, i haven't said that they don't or that it is right for that to happen. I'm just pointing out that not saying anything probably wouldn't make a difference to how they feel about it. They were still raped.

Ok librarians :)

I dunno Bumbley, it does make sense to tell all our children to make sure they are safe. I honestly dont know, on the one hand if we as parents dont say these things then we might blame ourselves if something happens, OTOH as I said upthread it could be planting the seed of "it must be my fault this happened because I took the bus/wore that skirt etc"

It is hard, sometimes it makes me glad I dont have girls, sometimes it makes me sad to think that my boys are growing up in a world where they are already not to be trusted. Hmmm......I guess Im back on the fence

I really hate the not walking home alone 'tip' in particular. It's victim blaming and very often you have no choice - when I was at uni I worked in pubs and would cycle/walk home after work. Was I supposed to get a taxi and probably spend as much as I've earned? And of course taxi drivers never make you feel vulnerable or make letchy leering comments do they.

I escaped from a taxi driver whos intentions were obviously not to just drive me home Librarians . When I told a colleague he said "why on earth did you get in a taxi on your own". Twat.

I dislike that you can't give any 'tips' to possibly reduce certain risks without being accused of victim blaming.

Exactly hairylemon you can't win can you. Women should clearly never go out after dark or drink or get dressed up just in case.

My argument bumbley is that those tips probably won't work anyway - by all means tell them not to drink too much - I'll be telling them that to save their moeny and livers but not walking home alone and not wearing 'provocative clothing' won't be mentioned. The clothing one in particular is utter utter nonsense.

librarian i agree with your post above, as I used to have to walk back from work in the dark and it was a forty minute walk!

However, I think it's a case of protecting yourself by walking on well lit streets, wearing sensible shoes so you don't trip over or you can run if needed, don't wear earphones so you can hear someone coming up behind you, let someone know what time to expect you home, if you take the same route at the same time every day perhaps change it up a bit so you're not so predictable.

It's no-ones fault for being attacked, but taking some precautions against it would help lower the risk IMO and if you can do so, then why not.

I must be being thick.

I understand that it is all the rapists fault.
I understand that the way you dress/act etc is never an invitation to rape.

But the fact is there ARE rapists out there. Some of them opportunistic. Surely there are some actions you could/should take which will reduce the risks, albeit slightly?

Hairy lemon, do you think if you don't say those things that they wouldn't question themselves anyway?

Think about anything bad that's happened in your life - don't you always think 'if only I'd done this' or 'if only I hadn't done that'. Even if it's not our fault we still do that.

But it is victim blaming. Maybe for the greater good, lesser of two evils for want of a much much better phrase, but its still reinforcing the idea that it will somehow be their fault if it happens. I dont know what the alternative is though.

I didn't mention clothing librarian but do you think that no one has ever been raped when they were walking home alone?

Funnily enough, the only scary situations I have had were not while wearing tight clothes and pissed, but with men I thought I knew and could trust (mercifully both times I managed to talk my way out of the situation to safety, but this was luck, not judgement, that these two men chose not to become physically violent). Statistically, given that most rapes are carried out by men who know the victim, many of whom, sadly, are actually in relationships, the best thing you can do for your daughter is to teach her that she has a right to bodily autonomy, that when she says no a decent man will accept that as meaning no, and to get away from sleazeballs who don't take this attitude as soon as possible. Sadly, on its own this may not be enough, because some rapists superficially look and behave (at least on first meeting) like ordinary members of the human race, but at least it means that if she ever has the misfortune to meet one, she won't end up trying to normalise his behaviour, staying in a relationship with someone who rapes her, or worrying that those closest to her will engage in victim blaming if she tries to turn to them for support.

And I'm trying to bring my son up to know that when someone asks you not to touch them/tickle them/play fight with them, you have to stop, and when you ask them to stop, they should do, and if you don't want to be kissed by Great Aunt Aggie or sit on Uncle Theophillus's knee, you don't have to (he's only 4 so that's as far as the complexities can go at this point.

Bagel, I'm so sorry for what happened to you. Please believe me that it really wasn't your fault in any way. I remember discovering a friend of mine had been so drunk at a party, that when she gave the taxi driver her address, she gave an old one (I wasn't there to keep an eye on her as I was trying to sort out an aggressive gate-crasher, so didn't realise how badly drunk she was when she staggered out the door :( ). She went to the old address, rang the bell, and the young man who lived there saw that she was incapably drunk, needed looking after. He put her to bed in his bed and slept on the sofa, gave her a cup of coffee the next morning and sent her on her way unharmed. I just wanted to share this with you to underline that it wasn't your behaviour that was at fault, it was just really bad luck that you happened to meet a rapist at the wrong time. We can't live our whole lives on the assumption that every man we meet might be a rapist - we'd have no social life, never be able to be alone with a male friend, never be able to let our hair down by having a few drinks. And it would be grossly upsetting and insulting to the vast majority of men who are actually lovely, ordinary members of the human race.

I don't think it's reinforcing that idea. As I said before, even if you didn't say anything about it to them they would probably question themselves anyway - 'what if I had/hadn't... ' I don't think it means that they're blaming themselves, I think it's just something we do.

It's all about risk mitigation. Of course we can't remove all risks. We can teach our children to become confident young adults who can make their own risk assessments. There will always be rapists out there, there is nothing that will protect anyone 100% from them. But if we teach our children safe ways to go out and enjoy themselves and explore the world, then at least we are doing what we can to try and stop them becoming another statistic. And it applies to both boys and girls. Men can be raped too, or mugged, or beaten, or do stupid things when drunk and end up dead.

It's about things like having the confidence to refuse to get into a car with a drunk driver - drunk driving is sadly on the increase amongst youngsters. It's about learning to drink in a sensible manner so that though you may be merry you're not completely incapable. It's about knowing what to do if a situation starts to get tricky and having the confidence to act. It's about ensuring that the taxi you get into is licensed or pre-booked with a firm that you know. It's about teaching what a good healthy relationship looks like and teaching our children that their worth lies in more than being a sexual object.

Along with this we need to improve society's attitude to sexual violence.

So it is entirely sensible for a 14 year old to go out on the lash, short skirt, high heels, flirting outrageously with anything that moves. Get completely trashed, stagger home at 1am alone, wearing only one shoe and weaving all over the pavement, and take a shortcut through an unlit park.

Because if someone were to suggest to her she might want to make different choices that would be (pre) victim blaming.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm trying to understand.

I do Bumbley, like in the taxi example, I thought "why didnt I ring the company I always use?" "why didnt I just stay with the others" "why did I answer his seemingly friendly questions about who was at home waiting for me" etc etc

But then the other voice in me says "why the fuck shouldnt I have got a taxi" etc

As i say Im glad in many ways I dont have girls so I dont have to have this internal conflict with myself on how to handle this sort of thing. Although I fear in this generation of readily available porn that I will have some difficult roads ahead

No bumbley, people do get raped walking home alone but a very small percentage. How you deal with it is what matters - a blanket 'don't walk home alone' is impractical and victim blaming.
When walking home from a night out my friends and I tend to have person to text when we're home and do that for example but it would never occur to us to not walk.
the problem with things like this though is that people start to put the emphasis on what a rape-victim did or didn't do or tell women who are going out and having fun what they should or shouldn't do rather htan dealing with the actual problem and blaming rapists. It's magical thinking an dusually doens't work.