Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

''If you don't want to teach your children common sense for fear of 'victim blaming', that's your business. Don't be too surprised when they walk into easily avoided trouble ''

It is nothing to do with avoiding victim blaming to point out that how 'chaste' your clothes have absolutely no impact on your risk of being raped and therefore such advice is completely pointless. It is not risk management to take steps that have no impact on the potential risk you are trying to avoid. As I explained in a previous post it could actually have an adverse effect to instil the view that 'chaste' clothes are a protection. Bumbly you say it you realise it doesn't give complete protection but the point many of us are trying to make is that it offers zero protection

Bumbley

As has been pointed out, general safety advice won't protect anyone from being raped apart from possibly a minority of stranger rapes but there is no evidence to support it.

So why keep banging on about it? Why lump rape in with being mugged or beaten up?

It's not about not giving advice it's just it's the wrong advice. But whilst we fixate upon strangers, dark alleys, drunk women, we cannot move the debate on it areas where we might be able to help people protect themselves.

For all we know there might be a script or pattern date rapists follow or behaviour that relationship rapists exhibit. If this exists it could be studied and shared. This would protect more women from being raped.

I don't want people to get raped. If they are unfortunate enough to get raped I don't want them to minutely examine their behaviour as to what they could have done differently erroneously thinking about what they wore or what they drank meant they were raped. I don't want people to feel they can't go to the police or get support because they weren't raped by a stranger in an alley whilst wearing a habit because that's the image of rape society presents.

Cheddar, I didnt say it was too sensitive for you in particular. I was speaking generally in response to another poster who I think mentioned your earlier comment about being 'triggered'. I don't think that a discussion or debate can be restricted to people who have first hand experience. Even if someone has been raped they can not say that they have experience or knowledge of every different possible scenario that people have been raped in. By your argument, no one who hasn't been raped in a dark alley by a stranger should have any input into the discussion.

Scroungin,satong that it offers zero protection suggests that you think no rapes ever happen in the situations described.

Handbag, I'm glad that you acknowledged that it may protect in certain situations. That's all anyone has really been trying to say. As I said before, the only reason that the other areas haven't been discussed in such great detail is because no one disagrees on them! I don't think people should feel guilty about being raped either but I don't think that it's the advice that makes people question themselves (because they wouldn't question themselves if they suffered another type of attack, even though the same advice would apply). It is society's perception of the crime that has to change. Victim blaming does not happen with any other crime. It should not happen with rape either.

I haven't acknowledged it bumbley because there is no evidence to support it. If you read what I've written.

What advice to women about rape has everyone agreed on? Did I miss the long involved discussion on how to avoid date rape? Or how to avoid being raped by a partner?

I'm disappointed in how you have dismissed the real experiences of real women. It does your argument no favours and you come across as arrogant and uncompassionate. Seeing as though you are so passionate about general safety advice you might like to think about how you come across to people when you discuss it wrt rape.

There you go twisting words again bumbley

Bumbley I cannot believe your last post.

You talk of something you have NO understanding of. Rape victims do blame themselves. Rape victims are held partially responsible by society 'for getting themselves into that situation'. That is why there is such an appalling record of rape victims coming forward and rape cases even making it into court.

And you blithely say to rape victims on this thread "I don't think rape victims should feel guilty either". Like it's that simple!! They are made to feel it's their fault by the rape myths that are trotted out again and again on these threads. an awful lot of them by you.

Running, I haven't said that it doesn't happen. I haven't said that they don't blame themselves or question themselves (in fact I posted quite a lot about that yesterday) I said that it shouldn't happen. Society's opinion and beliefs about rape and rape victims need to change. I have already said that victim blsmung does not happen with other crimes (even with the safety advice given) so why should it happen with rape? Do you really disagree that it shouldn't happen? Really? Or are you just disagreeing with anything and everything I say?

Also, no one hais trotted out any rape myths on this thread. No one has said anywhere that it is a victims fault. Everyone has blamed the rapist. What we are arguing about is whether giving safety advice would result in victim blaming or not. Some people think no and others think yes.

Bumbley - what evidence do you have that the safety advice given to women to avoid rape doesn't contribute to the victim blaming of rape victims in society?

Running, what evidence do you have that it does? Does victim blaming happen after any other type of attack even with all the safety advice that is given?

i dont so much think about it these days occasionally things may prompt a unwelcome reminder stuff like the feel of stainless steal on my skin,was damn near impossible to go for a smear test befor they started using plastic, certain smells or a perticular song being played.or obviously when rape is a topic of conversation.

the things that i do tend to think about and most certainly did for a long time afterwards were things like 'was there anything i could have done to change what happened to me' i went over and over and over this so many times and it took ages to figure out that no, there was NOTHING i could have done to change what happened. i was just in the wrong place at the same time as a group of violent criminals but nobody at all could have predicted that it was the wrong place,i was doing nothing that any sane reasonable person would highlight as a risk.

i didnt feel guilty till it became obvious that i was the 'pregnant woman' refered to in the news reports,because the attitude i faced from some people ranging from 'she must have done something stupid to prompt it' to even some years later 'shes been around a bit,she fucked 4 blokes at the same time everybody knows about it' to being asked in court if i enjoyed rough sex or if i had ever owned a sex toy.it took me a long time to shake off that guilt and work out that i didnt need to feel it people who said crap like that should be the ones who feel guilty.

the man who found me in the street bleeding and screaming who carryed me to a phone box and called the police and willingly gave a dna swob and every single officer who i came into contact with praised me and it took ages to figure out why and tbh even now im damn proud of how i conducted myself.i bit i scratched i spread as much of my blood and spit as i possibly could around the room i was in and i pissed myself . that didnt stop me being raped but it did make sure they got convicted and as they were released it enabled me to get one of the very few lifetime injunctions.perhaps my actions spared another woman going through what i did at there hands.

no matter how i felt then and no matter how i feel now i know that nobody has the right to blame me nobody has the right to blame anybody or anything other than the people who commited the crime. so from my experance if the one thing that you learn is its a crime and allways the fault of the person commiting the crime.then its been worth me thinking about it again because hopefully not one of you will ever think its ok to make judgement on how i or any other person who has been raped must have asked for it or enjoyed it in some way or forget that i was raped i didnt engage in a 4way sex session

im gratefull my mother tought me about forensics, its usefull for rape myths to constantly and consistantly be challenged and its usefull to educate everybody about sexual respect its not so usefull to opperate through fear and use rape myths as stick to beat people with.we know that the hugest risk is from known people but we dont know who those people are, we also know that marrital rape only became a crime in the uk in the very early 90's education about respect can challenge not only the crime but also help with reporting and recovery and convictions.

Sock :( you are a very brave woman. I'm very glad that those men are behind bars. I hope they are suffering but I'm sure it can never be close to what you've been through. I wish there were harsher punishments for rapists. I really do.

The evidence that it does contribute to victim blaming is that rape victims are questioned by police, by courts, by bystanders, by Daytime TV presenters:

What were they wearing?
About their previous sexual history.
Why didn't they take a cab?
What were they doing out at that time?
Why were they alone?
Were they drunk?
Why did they go home with him?
Why did they invite him into their house?

Dependent on the answers to these questions are:

Whether they are believed.
Whether it is a case that can be taken to court.
Whether her behaviour brought it on herself.
Whether the rapist gets away with it.

And lets not forget Ken Clarke's "degrees of rape"

The rape victim's behaviour is frequently ripped to shreds in courts and in the media. Because she didn't behave somehow appropriately. Because she didn't follow the guidelines laid down in society to keep women safe from rape.

So, other that it suiting your own opinion, what evidence can you cite that the safety advice, as outlined in the op, given to women to avoid rape doesn't not, in any way at all, contribute to victim blaming?

"I honestly do not think many men know what rape is. I think many men think it is stranger rape in a dark alleyway and would be surprised to learn what rape actually is. I think that is such an important area for discussion and education. "

Good point Kim. Someone actually linked to a poster on the rape crisis website earlier that was very good. runningforthebus maybe?

My post was to Bumbley - lots of x-posts there.

I don't know if this has been raised before on this thread (I have been following but not every page). I have been a couple of situations that could/would have turned nasty. In one case a man was getting quite belligerent and I told him to stop touching me or I would break his fingers. I meant it and he knew it. Now, that prevented me continuing to get sexually assaulted by him. He stopped sexually assaulting me. However, I am under no illusions that he was a predator and would go on to try it over and over again with other women.

All this talk of preventing rape... rapists rape and even if wearing certain clothes put a certain rapist off attacking me, he would still attack someone. Rapists don't disappear, they just attack someone else. Unless we challenge all the societal crap about women and power and sex rapes will happen. Unless we demand that rape is treated seriously, rapes will happen.

As to the clothes and walking home and shoes... I used to work with ex-offenders. I worked with several 'stranger' rapists and spoke to them about their crimes. Not one mentioned clothes. One of them was extremely clever and manipulated women into being alone with him. I would have fallen for his lies had I been the woman he targeted. He wasn't looking at clothes or shoes or women being drunk. He just kept telling the lies until any woman fell for them.

Running, you're missing the point. Do any of those questions get asked in relation to any other attack?

socknickingpixie you are a very brave woman to post what you did. It's so honest and emotional.

I'm so sorry that it happened to you. I can't begin to fathom what goes through someone's head that they think it's ok to do that to another human being.

You should be able to sue the court for asking such despicable questions. It's an utter disgrace.

I hope you find peace and I hope your baby wasn't harmed.

Best wishes xx

Bumbley - you said in a pp that you didn't think the safety guidelines given to women to avoid rape contribute to victim blaming in society.

Do you have any argument to back this statement up?

there out now but i rarely let it bother me now. yes there should be harsher punishments and perhaps there would be if people in genral didnt think that it was anything to do with what someone wears or where they walk or how much they drink or any other rape myth that people come up with.or if factors like your mummy not kissing you enough or kissing you to much or any other bunkum the daily fail type rags and people who think far to deeply about shaving/make up or high heals can come up with wernt concidered to be inherent mitigating factors thus reducing blame to perpetrators