Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

nooka: "I am a risk manager professionally and I really wouldn't advocate to anyone to put in place controls that are unlikely to make any difference to the risk but are more likely to increase fear and reduce quality of life."

Couldn't agree more. Sorry to hear about your DH. My cousin was mugged and has found it a devastating experience (ex forces, and a lot of his sense of self worth was to do with thinking of himself as "someone who could handle himself", so it's had a massive impact on him psychologically). Which reminds me of what my tae kwondo teacher said many years ago, having asked how many of us were in the class with a view to learning self defence techniques. He asked "what would happen if someone came up to me randomly in the street and tried to punch me in the nose?" The class suggested various blocks, counter punches, etc. His answer? "No, I'd end up with a broken nose just like anyone else, because I wouldn't be expecting it." Self defence may help in some circumstances, but in many it won't.

There's another thing about the issue of clothes which hasn't been addressed yet. It's also tied up with another myth - that rape happens when men are overcome by lust, or that rapes are normal sex gone wrong because the man didn't read the signals right. Yes some rapists may have a visual type that they fixate on (which could be sexy clothes, but could equally well be "women who remind him of X on telly" or "posh birds who need taking down a peg or two"). And if he's a cynical rapist with a knowledge of how the system works, he may target women in skimpy clothes because he thinks he might get off. But equally he might target any other vulnerable category of women - prostitutes, addicts, homeless women. But what he almost certainly isn't doing is thinking of victim selection in terms of some sort of beauty contest.

Mugging is useful as part of a general discussion of self defence and its usefulness (or not) but the problem with the mugging analogy is that while you can hide a wallet/phone/avoid flashing wads of cash, you can't hide the fact that you have a vagina.

No worries handbag it was a long time ago and although he was very shaken up by it the police were totally supportive. Plus we now live somewhere very different (and the mugging may well have been a factor in that).

Plus being physically assaulted is of course very very different to being raped (although the two can go together). Sexual assault I think hurts your spirit and soul in a fairly permanent manner in a way that I don't think being beaten up does (depending on the circumstances of course).

I will tell my DD how to keep herself safe. don't drink to excess, keep an eye on her drink blah blah blah. Clothing? not so much. I will tell my sons the same.

Its simply the personal equivalent of locking your front door and not leaving £1000 in used tenners on the front doorstep.

Totally agree Lurcio. When I was a teenager I went through a very androgynous phase, and I did feel that I was safer because I didn't look like a woman. Not a very healthy long term strategy really, and not one I'll be suggesting to my dd.

A useful bit of advice I would definitely give to a young woman if that a man you know - friend, boyfriend, acquaintance whatever, ever oversteps any boundary of yours or seems not to really care about how you feel be very wary. If you are in a sexual situation with someone and you express discomfort or object to something and they don't really listen or try to dismiss your feelings, be very wary. A male friend/partner should always be respectful of your personal space, should not make lewd comments that make you uncomfortable and in a sexual situation you should always feel in control of what's happening to you. If at any point you feel a man is overriding your wishes, you feel pushed into anything, even just hugging, stop the situation. Don't worry about looking mad or impolite, just do it, whatever way you can. You have that right. You have the right to say "I am not happy, stop," and to kick up a fuss if he belittles you or tries to make out you're overreacting. A decent man will be mortified and apologise profusely, you'll sort it out between you, no harm done. A man who has no respect for women and no respect for you will laugh, tell you you're being silly, call you a "hairy feminist," whatever, and you know it's time to bin him.

The "straightforward" rape where someone jumps out of a bush and pins you to the ground is very very rare. Protecting yourself against it is like protecting yourself against a plane crash - you're never going to be in a plane crash if you never get in a plane, but chances are even if you fly every day of your life you'll never be in a plane crash either and at least you will have done what you wanted to do.

My 15 yo daughter who has high functioning asd, pc savvy but emotionally very young, met up unbeknown to me with someone she had been talking to online and was raped. He was entirely to blame of course. But surely we are able to try and teach our children to not place themselves in very risky situations too, without it being a blame the victim scenario?
Women should be able to wear what they like and go where they like without being raped yes. But I also blame myself too for what happened to dd, how can I not.

handbag, I think you're missing the point that a lot of people are making on this thread. We aren't coming on and focussing on this advice in this particular situation thinking 'oh, if we do this we'll be safe and we'll have nothing to worry about'. People have talked about certain things that they do to keep themselves safe in general, general advice that they give their children. We all realise that there are no guarantees and that there is no way to proetdt ourselves or our children completely but we think it's important to pass the advice on becuase it might help, even just a little bit. The reason that the discussion goes on and on is becuase some people try to argue that there's no point in giving that advice/that it is victim blaming etc and some of us just don't agree. We give our children advice whether they are male/female/children/young adults and we aren't specifically talking about rape but we aren't going to exclude rape from one of the possible risks.

I thought of a few other examples from when I was travelling. When I was owing to Paris someone warned me about people targeting tourists with their bags on their backs on the metro. People advised us to carry our bags on our front. So we did. Did this mean we thought we could never have our bag stolen? No. But it at least reduced the chances of one particular type of theft (hich was probably fairly low incidence)

Also, when we were travelling through Bangkok. We were warned about a few of the tourist scams. So we looked out for them. Did this mean that we wouldn't have been taken in by any of the other scams or come to any other harm on our travels? No. But it meant we could at least try to reduce the chances of being taken in by some of them.

We all do these types of things on a regular basis. It doesn't make sense to not do them wrt rape even if it only might make a small difference.

"I am more likely to have an impact on the numbers of rapes committed by drumming into my son and his friends that they should only have sex with girls/women who are clearly enjoying having sex with them, and that if they or anyone they know is forcing themselves on a girl/woman that that is totally and utterly repugnant and unacceptable than I ever would by telling my daughter to avoid walking home alone. "

Is it always about impacting the number of rapes? Wouldn't you tell your daughter not to walk home alone anyway?

Bumbley if those things make you feel better then go ahead.

Pumpster I'm so sorry to hear about what happened to your daughter. How is she?

Just wanted to point out that the Suzy Lamplugh stay safe tips I posted earlier were purely for nights out. There are also sections on safety in every situation you can imagine including workplace, home etc

Obviously all victim blaming though

Good posts Edith.

Thanks Callin. I will.

Obviously MNers know better ItsAll! :)

Not so good Cailin but we have had lots of support and the man was arrested.

In the police station there were lots of posters about alcohol making you vulnerable. There were also several saying anything other than a yes is not consent.

Remember that that man could have targeted your daughter in person just as easily as he did on the internet. He used the internet because he could, not because you did anything wrong. You are in no way to blame for what he did.

So sorry to read about your DD pumpster :(

pumpster I'm really sorry for what happened to your dd. Youre not to blame and neither is your dd. Internet predators are horrendous people who use all manner of manipulation to get children to do what they want.

bumbley. This is a thread about reducing the risk of being raped, not reducing the likelihood of being a victim of violent crime. Most people go through life not being the victims of violent crime. I think that's a good thing and shows that most people are decent.

Maybe it's great you go round thinking if you wear your bag at the front it's making a measurable difference. I dunno. I think we'd be better putting more effort into making society more equitable then you could wear your bag hiw you like.

Did I say it made a measurable difference handbag? No. I specifically said it was probably low incidence but we did it because it might have reduced the risk of one particular crime and it wasn't actually that big a deal.

Bumbley you believe what you believe and no one is going to convince you otherwise so I'm not sure what the point for the thread is?

Or are you hoping to act as an advocate for mothers who expect their daughters to behave a certain way?

Oh nice sarky comments there bumbley and it's. This is all a bit pointless.

handbagCrab But rape is a violent crime, and safety advice applies to all violent crime. It does not exclude rape. Equally, AFAIK, there is no safety advice to specifically avoid rape.

The point bumbly was making is that when you are aware of a risk you do what you can to reduce that risk. Of course there are no guarantees, but that does not mean you shouldn't try.

Also handbag, your talking about violent crime and rape as of you give your children separate advice in each. 'ok kids, to protect yourself from violent crime do x,y and z but if you're worried about getting raped then forget that advice because we don't want you to blame yourself if you do get raped.' how does that work exactly?

I mean if I came on here and said "I believe praying prevents rape" who's going to convince me otherwise? And why would I post unless I was hoping to get other mothers to get their DDs to pray?