Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

Yes, the whole way through. I'm not sure why you are making the points you have if I've read it. You're just going over old ground and arguing against things that haven't been said.

I'm too tired for this. Good night.

If you've* read it.

You want to give them advice? Great.

Tell them that the vast majority of rapes are carried out by someone know to the woman - a boyfriend, a friend, a husband. They don't happen in shady alleyways, they happen in people's homes. They're more at risk from the male friend who walks them home than a random stranger.

Tell them about personal boundaries. Tell them that they don't ever have to do something they're not happy with because they feel pressured to do it or because they have said yes to other things. That if a man is behaving in a way that makes them uncomfortable they can say so, loudly and clearly. They don't have to put up with behaviour that makes them uncomfortable. It's not 'making a fuss'.

Tell them that it's never their fault. Tell them that when men are lying drunk and unconscious on pavements no-one seems to think they've 'put themselves at risk' of a man shoving his penis into their anus.

Tell them to look at how they're treated by the men around them. If someone doesn't respect your right to say no to something like his hand on your shoulder or your right to be left alone at a bar it's a good indication that he won't respect you when you say no to sex.

Tell them that clothes don't matter. The same perception exists in Egypt (pre latest troubles), amongst women and men, that wearing traditional modest clothing and covering your hair reduces the risk of assault and wearing western clothing increases it. In fact it seems to make no difference to the high level of public sexual assaults. They're not about how the women behave or dress, they're about how the men behave. Women reassure themselves that they're reducing risk because no-one wants to feel powerless.

It's been said before narked. You're not saying anything we not already know and we're not arguing against anything you've said.

Don't* already know.

Sorry, that sounded rude Narked. Your points are good and I don't think anyone is arguing against what you are saying.

Really tired now. Must sleep! Good night ladies.

"Tell them that the vast majority of rapes are carried out by someone know to the woman - a boyfriend, a friend, a husband. They don't happen in shady alleyways, they happen in people's homes"

but SOME do!

and many of those go unreported..

Narked - absolutely.

Bumbley, I really hate to break it to you - but what a woman wears has no bearing on whether she is raped or not. Women cannot run away from a rapist that has targeted them. Unless they are an olympic runner. Women cannot, generally, fight off a rapist. Even if they a blackbelt in karate, they would have trouble fighting off an average man.

My dh isn't that much bigger than me - I'm 5'6" he's 5'10" we're both slim. A strength contest between us is a no-win for me.

Women are raped by strangers no matter what they're wearing. No matter how much they've drunk. And no matter where they are.

All these things are the equivalent of touching wood, not walking under a ladder or putting up an umbrella in the house. They are things that make us feel more secure because they target our fears. The media gives front page coverage to stories like the woman who was attacked after being kicked off the night bus. Women on the local news are attacked 'on their way home from a night out.' So we don't go out late and we don't drink too much and we get taxis home. So it can't happen to us. Rapes happen to those women who take risks - not that there's any judgement there and of course it's the rapists fault...

Reality check - you're protecting yourself against a bogeymonster. And even if you are one of those few women unlucky enough to actually meet one, the garlic and holywater don't work. You could be walking home from the shop at 2 in the afternoon in a tracksuit.

Oh my goodness, I need to turn this off!

"what a woman wears has no bearing on whether she is raped or not"

Where have I said tht it does?! I'll save you some searching time - nowhere!

Also, some women do manage to fight off and get away from their rapists. The shoes they are wearing and/or how drunk they are at the time may (please note the may ) have some bearing on this. It is well recognised that drinking impairs your reaction times and awareness etc and stilettos certainly impair your ability to run.

I feel like I need to repeat again to make it perfectly clear that my above statement does not, and is not intended to, imply that rapists only target drunk women in stilettos or that drunk women in stilettos are the only people who get raped or that a stranger she encounters on her walk home is the greatest risk of rape for a drunk woman wearing stilletos.

"So we don't go out late and we don't drink too much and we get taxis home. So it can't happen to us. Rapes happen to those women who take risks"

Do you realise that no one on this thread is actually trying to argue that?

It was argued in the op bumbley, just in case you've forgotten.

Bumbley, you really need to check your facts here - is there really nay evidence that the shoes you wear have any real difference on wether you can run away from a rapist??

Men can overpower women easily - it's a biological fact. Should I tell my dd to wear running shoes on a night out?

And - if you're giving you're daughters the advice advocated in the op - the you are arguing that fact, yes.

I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that. I think that's a self-protection thing that goes on in women's heads. It's the same thing that often results in women not identifying what's happened to them as rape - because if it wasn't rape then they aren't a victim - though it more than meets the legal definition.

I am not the OP so saying 'you hate to break it to me...blah blah' doesn't really make sense. Where have I said that what she wears has any bearing on whether a woman is raped? Nowhere.

As for the shoes, let's see how many olympic athletes are competing in stilettos shall we? I haven't said that wearing stilettos means you won't be able to get away from a rapist or that wearing trainers means that you will - I said that your footwear may (and I even drew extra attention to the may!) have some bearing on it. Please note (again!) that i am in no way suggesting that the stillettos are what is making you a target for the rapist!

I'm wondering if you are actually going to try to argue that it is easier to run in stilettos now.

YANBU to want to protect them. My main concern about your advice is it may lead to a false sense of security i.e. they think they are safe because they are wearing chaste clothes so stop being aware of their surroundings etc. When I was raped I was recovering from a stinking cold, was wearing a baggy jumper and comfort fit jeans. My hair was just pulled back into a pony tail.

However not drinking too much, making sure you always have money to get home and being aware of your surroundings are good pieces of advice for all sorts of health and safety reasons.

Fgs why focus on a teeny tiny proportion of cases where a woman may be lucky enough to escape long enough and have enough wits about her to make a run for it but couldn't because she was in a body con dress and louboutins? If that actually happened with any regularity I'm sure in the interests of public safety the clothes and shoes would come with a warning. Every other thing does these days.

As narked said its the equivalent of not walking under ladders. At least be honest with yourself. You can comfort yourself that 75% of women aren't raped so you're most likely to not be raped anyway rather than pretending it's because you dress chastely and never get pissed.

But I suppose people would rather argue about the one in a million case that may have been avoided by wearing trainers not heels than look at the vast majority of rapes carried out by seemingly normal blokes.

Sorry scrounging :(

The reason for linking the Suzy Lamplugh Trust is because I am interested in teaching my children about self defence in the fullest sense

Some posters seem to think that by being concerned, for both boys and girls, about a range of risks, which include but are not limited to violent assault, I am contributing to unacceptable views in society.

I never realised that the provision, amongst other measures, of self-defence courses was so decried.

bumbley I really think that you are clutching at straws. I totally understand why you may wish to feel safer by moderating your behaviour (after all there is nothing you can do to change the behaviour of the rapist potentially waiting to jump out at you) but there is no evidence to suggest that it will make any difference at all to your lifetime chance of being raped.

I am a risk manager professionally and I really wouldn't advocate to anyone to put in place controls that are unlikely to make any difference to the risk but are more likely to increase fear and reduce quality of life.

As a parent of both a son and a daughter I suspect that I am more likely to have an impact on the numbers of rapes committed by drumming into my son and his friends that they should only have sex with girls/women who are clearly enjoying having sex with them, and that if they or anyone they know is forcing themselves on a girl/woman that that is totally and utterly repugnant and unacceptable than I ever would by telling my daughter to avoid walking home alone.

Most rapists appear to be totally normal and all of them have mothers, families and friends. If we really want to reduce the likelihood of our daughters being raped we should all be talking to our sons.

"er............. is it me or does this thread complelely disregard the raping of men?"

Briefly mentioned in one of the sites I linked. I have mentioned throughout that violent assaults are statistically more likely to happen to men, and our DSes need personal safety advice too.

As giving advice such as "do not leave your drink unattended" or "stick to well lit areas" or "check the vehicle you're about to get in to is indeed the cab you ordered" is classed as victim blaming by at least one poster on this thread.

The recommended advice which should be given is along the lines of making a loud fuss if you feel your personal boundaries are infringed and not to worry as it's not your fault.

Does this mean that children should not be ever told about what steps might help reduce the risks of violent muggings and assault (despite it being one of the crimes with very high rates)? Or that they should be told, but also told to discard that advice if they think it possible that a different crime is being contemplated?

And do you say it makes no difference where you meet someone in RL you've only met online so far? Would you really not tell your DCs to meet them in a public place first, tell someone where they will be, and arrange to ring someone at intervals to say if they're OK? For all that presumably comes under the heading of victim blaming as much as thus categorising of "stick to well lit areas". And of course it doesn't make the slightest difference either, does it? As posters have repeatedly pointed out, the person you meet either will or won't be an attacker, and so protective measures are all magical thinking.

Generally speaking when people are assaulted they are not told it is there fault so there isn't the same cultural pressure to blame oneself.

I will give general advice to both my children about what could constitute a threat, being attuned to their surroundings, the many problems associated with getting very drunk, looking out for their friends, and yelling out at dodgy behaviour of any sort. Plus generally thinking about the potential consequences of their actions. They have both had some self defense education too.

What I won't do is sit my daughter down and say that any of the above will stop her from being raped, or that she should change her life in ways that I wouldn't suggest to her brother.

NB My dh was mugged on a well lit street when sober, dressed in jeans and trainers. He is 6'5" and at the time was quite a serious bodybuilder. But the mugger jumped him with a knife and he was unable to protect himself, run away and as many people do he froze and didn't think to yell 'fire' - apparently the most effective way to attract attention. I really really think it is a fallacy to think that an ordinary person is likely to be able to do that much in such a scenario (that's not to say that some people don't successfully fight/run away, but how many attempt to do so and face greater violence as a result?). The general police advice on being mugged is to give the mugger what they want in order to avoid being assaulted too.

IME the cultural pressure is very much to blame the victim.

Sorry about your dh nooka

If most people were mugged by someone they know, would the advice be different though Edith?