Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

I dunno edith the advice you've just linked to doesn't really advocate attack. And you can't secrete your breasts and vagina carefully about your person to avoid detection.

I think it's to do with understanding boundaries and consent on both sides in terms of being raped by someone you know. Everyone understanding about enthusiastic consent and that sex isn't a right or something to be given in exchange for drinks or a substitute for love and care.

So what advice on prevention do you recommend instead?

Or are you saying none should be given?

Looking at the Suzy Lamplugh site, it does give a lot of good advice on personal safety in a range of situations. It goes without saying you can still follow that advice but still find yourself in a situation which threatens you and your safety.

I can see that watching your drinking is a common piece of advice - to men and women. Stay in well lit places. Go home in a taxi or with friends.

I do think that what needs to be tackled is how juries and the police see rape. They need to know what rape is and they need to know that it does not matter what the victim was doing, she is not to blame. No matter what she was wearing, what she drank, what she did or did not say, where she walked, how she danced and flirted. It is not her fault. Maybe then will men see what rape really is and they will realise that they do not have right to a women's body no matter what she has done.

How do you achieve that though handbag? Do you think you can just tell a rapist about boundaries and consent and tell them not to rape and that will be that?

The Suzy Lamplugh Trust Personal Safety on a Night Out (all victim blaming, maybe someone should tell them?) :

Going out can be a lot of fun but remember to stay safe . Ensure you plan your journey home before going out and follow our advice to have a fun and safe time.

In the pub and club
If you are drinking alcohol, be careful not to let it affect your judgment or your ability to take care of yourself.
Watch drinks and food to ensure that nothing is added to them. If something tastes odd, do not eat/drink any more of it.
If someone you do not know well or trust offers to buy you a drink, you should either decline or accompany them to the bar and watch that nothing is added to your drink.
If possible arrange for at least one of your group to stay sober, in order to keep an eye on the others and see that they don?t do anything to put themselves in danger.
Know your limit. Remember, nothing will turn you into a potential victim quicker or more effectively than alcohol.
If you feel particularly strange after taking a drink (even a soft drink) or realise you have drunk too much, tell a friend immediately and make sure you are accompanied home by one of your own group.
Getting home

Taxi
Always use a taxi or licensed minicab.
Taxis (Hackney Carriages) can be hailed in the street. They look like purpose?built taxis or black cabs and have an illuminated taxi sign on the roof.
Licensed minicabs cannot be hailed in the street. They must be pre-booked. The driver should have ID and the vehicle will have some sort of license displayed on it.
Always carry the telephone number of a trusted, licensed company with you.
When booking a taxi or minicab, ask for the driver?s name, as well as the make and colour of the car. Confirm the driver?s details when they arrive ? is it the taxi or minicab you ordered?
Sharing a taxi or minicab with a friend and sitting in the back of the car are good safety strategies.

Night bus
Know where you are going and which stop you need. Check departure times, especially of last buses.
Try and have your ticket, pass or change ready in your hand so your purse or wallet is out of sight.
Wait for a bus or train in a well-lit place near other people whenever possible.
Carry extra money in case you get stranded and need to take another bus, train or cab.

Walking
Whenever possible, stick to well-lit, busy areas where you can be clearly seen and where you can clearly see other people.
Never be tempted to take a risky short cut e.g. through a quiet section of the park or down a deserted alleyway.
You need to stay alert to your surroundings at all times because the sooner you become aware of potential danger, the easier it is to avoid it.
Think about carrying a personal alarm with you, which can be used to disorientate and shock an attacker.
Carrying a mobile phone is also a good idea in case of emergencies but keep it concealed and only use it when you have to.
Always act on your instincts ? if something looks or feels wrong it probably is, so don?t wait for your fears to be confirmed, get away from the situation as quickly as possible.

The damage has been done long before you're in a rape situation with a rapist. I don't think you can politely request that a rapist in a rape situation respects your boundaries. Because they wouldn't be raping you in the first place if they did! Sorry.

I guess if women have strong self esteem and good boundaries they might not let Bob walk them home because he insisted until they felt they couldn't say no or carry on letting Gerald feel them up because he paid for dinner. Likewise, Bob and Gerald need to understand that just because they want to have sex with Anna and she's nice to them does not mean they can push themselves onto her.

Maybe it's easier to try and protect yourself from the rapist in the bushes with an alarm, martial arts training, flat footwear even if the chances are minuscule.

I plan on teaching all my kids to trust their gut instinct, not be afraid to act on it, not worry about offending people, keep an eye on the wider situation when out in public, and look out for each other in groups
It isn't a rape avoidance strategy, it's a general life strategy.
Also, martial arts. But full contact, not wimpy stuff. How to hit someone hard and properly (and then, in a rl situation, leg it). I would also hazard a guess that most martial arts experts would try v hard to avoid using their skills, would back away from situations or try to diffuse them, rather than throw themselves into a bust up.
And the alcohol thing
We are a nation in thrall to alcohol. It is much easier to be aware of what your gut instinct is telling you and act upon it if not even slightly pissed. There's a reason for the drink-driving laws. I would advise all my kids to be v careful drinking in public full stop, and to watch out for each other

None of this is guaranteed to keep them safe but it's my best shot at teaching them to be street smart and avoid dangerous situations, including potential rapists.

I have fought off several attackers over the years and am confident of my ability to kick ass. Not being pissed was greatly helpful in those situations. I can't expect to be able to overpower every assailant and often legging it is the overall better strategy, or defusing a situation with psychology (harder to teach, but comes under gut instinct), but I just don't understand why it is hard to accept that sometimes martial arts, not drinking when out, wearing useful footwear, or using gut instinct, might help save you from a dangerous situation. It's not saying that if you do drink, don't learn jiujitsu etc you are responsible if you are attacked, nor is it a 'magic cure-all', just putting the odds in your favour

I thank MNHQ for their contribution to their thread tonight. I think the thing to focus on is not what your dd's can do themselves to prevent rape. Because, horrifying as it is, there isn't a lot they can do if they are targeted by a rapist. Rape is a horrifying crime - it cannot be compared to a car accident, or a burglary, or warning a child of stranger danger. (Although the latter is frequently blamed on the parents ).

If you read back on this thread there is actually a fair bit of advice on what we can teach our sons and daughters about rape - and the most salient points are not about what you're wearing, how much you drink, or not walking in unlit areas. Plenty of people are raped, even in the stranger jumping out of an alleyway, when the victim is sober, wearing chaste clothing etc etc. The advice in the op will not keep your daughters safe from a rapist.

Although I have a lot of respect for the Suzi Lamplugh Trust, I am a bit confused about their advice which has been quoted on this thread. Suzi Lamplugh was targeted at her workplace. Nothing about what she wore, what she drank or walking in unlit areas had any relevance to her abduction and murder. She was murdered by a man who had made a legitimate work appointment with her (in a false name). Suzi Lamplugh had taken none of the "risks" highlighted in the op.

By all means teach all your children, male or female, about general responsibility and safety when out and about - that is just good sense. But be very wary of trying to teach young women about how to avoid rape with advice of the type advocated in the op - it's a red herring.

Was that to me handbag?

You may have misunderstood me. I'm not talking about telling a rapist about boundaries etc. while he's trying to rape you. I was talking about getting the message out to rapists in general. Obviously you can't just round them up and give them a special message - but if you're putting the message out there, do you really think its going to get through to them that easily?

..er............. is it me or does this thread complelely disregard the raping of men?

I think how you dress has little to do with being raped and maybe more to do with self respect and feeling comformtable in wearing whatever you want. Can;t imagine that 'plain/respectable etc etc' clothes is what would put off a person capably of sexual asssult.

But do feel the 'its your own body and it is precious' message is vital

For young girls AND young boys

You tell me bumbley.

Or shall we not try even though there may be a miniscule chance we might get through to a couple of rapists that walking someone home or buying them a drink or knowing their brother or being their partner doesn't give them the right to make women have sex with them?

It would take a long time with a consistent message but it's got to be better than wasting time discussing skirt lengths and heel heights.

Handbag, why do you think I'd be able to tell you? I'm not saying its not worth a try but it just doesn't seem like enough. I'm not sure what the answer is but I think it will be a combined effort and I do think that encouraging women to be aware has its place.

Bumbley, there are some very good articles regarding getting the message through to rapists. They have been posted on Mn frequently - I'll see if I can find them.

The fact is - the starting point to this discussion should be the rape culture we are living in - the fact that rape myths are so entrenched. The subject of what women wear, how much they drink etc, should not be the staring point of the discussion.

This is a good place to start if you are genuinely interested in the subject matter, rather than just winning an argument on MN.

I'll just add that feminists are not interested in telling women to 'take unnecessary risks' as has been alluded to upthread - it is more that the 'wear chaste clothing, don't drink' advice is a false comfort (sadly - I only wish women could protect themselves from rape by being sober and wearing non-revealing clothing!). And possibly worse, it can lead to a false sense of security, in that the highest statistical risk of rape is not a stranger in a dark alley, but someone they know and trust. And possibly even worse, it attributes to the whole victim blaming culture that is so apparent on juries, to the victims themselves and to wider society.

I'll just add one of my own personal experiences here. Just because I feel like it.

As a Uni student I did actually follow the advice of never walking alone at night etc etc. One night my boyfriend and I both went out on separate nights out. I got home first - we were in Halls of Residence, different houses. I, drunkenly, went into his room, got into his bed, fully clothed, to wait for him to return. I was woken by his friend kissing me. Friend had seen me and decided that as I, for want of a better term, gave out to by boyfriend, he'd like some too. I objected - loudly - but the only thing that stopped him raping me was the return of my boyfriend.

I struggled with that experience for years - wondering what I could have done differently to prevent that happening. It was very very frightening trying to physically fight off someone stronger than me, who I had previously liked and trusted.

But I daresay there are those that would find a way to blame me - So tell your daughters never ever to be alone in your boyfrined's bed - it's obviously an invitation to a rapist.

Thanks for the link. Some very interestings things from having a quick glance. I will read some more when I've gotten some decent sleep.

This isn't about just winning an argument by the way. I think that was an unnecessary comment. Some of your other points such as rape being statistically more likely with people you know and the whole what you wear/how much you've had to drink thing have actually been discussed at length on the thread. It might be worth trying to understand the angle that people are coming from on that because they aren't victim blaming.

But Bumbley. It is exactly an insidious form of victim blaming. The op had it exactly right when when she said ' or would I be victim blaming prior to the event'. Giving your dd's the sort of advice talked about in the op is perpetuating the victim blaming myths. You can give them advice about being safe and personally responsible without talking about what they wear, without it being about not being raped.

It is the sort of thinking that adds to the rape culture that exists in society - that stops victims coming forward, because they were drunk, because nobody will believe them etc. That's why the 'we believe you' campaign is so incredibly important.

There are many stories about people being pounced on on their doorsteps having just got out of a taxi. What advice would you give them?

Running, people have pointed out several times on the thread that they not give that advice with just rape in mind. They give it to their children in general. I'm not sure how you can exclude rape from it - it is one of the risks that is out there.

You have specifically referred to dress - not many people on the 'be aware' side of the argument have. It has mainly focused on alcohol consumption and walking home alone/through unlit areas etc...

The op specifically refers to dress, walking in unlit areas and alcohol. You have specifically talked about stranger rape - When that is not the main risk when it comes to rape.

And what advice would you give to the women attacked on their doorsteps? In their own homes? Are they not to be blamed because they followed the oft-told advice? Whereas the woman who got drunk on a date and was raped...?

Running, have you been reading the thread the whole way through?

No one claimed that stranger rape is the main risk. (that point has been made several times)

Re. Dress, yes, the op mentioned it. I was just pointing out that not many people have really mentioned it in the context of it making you a more likely victim or have suggested that dressing a certain way means it is your fault. It mainly came up in the context of whether it would make it harder for you to run/fight back etc. eg. Stillettos vs flat shoes.

That has been covered too running. I think you need to read the thread.

The Suzi Lamplugh Trust advice is all very well and good - you'd not be badly off following it. you wouldn't.

But just remember that it wouldn't have protected Suzi Lamplugh.

I have read the thread - Have you?

I think you're making a mistake that a lot of others have made on this thread. No one has said that these things would always protect you or that you'd never be raped if you followed the advice.