Would I be a terrible woman if i advise my DD's to act in a way so they are less likely to be assaulted.

[Rubytuesdayy]

With respect to lit streets, chaste clothes, state of drunkenness etc etc? Or would I be victim blaming prior to teh event. I KNOW that rape is the fault of the rapists, but I just want my DD's to be safe.

So if 1 in 4 women is raped, and 9% of those are by a stranger that is IMO a reasonably high chance of being raped by a starnger (over 1 in 1000), therefore I see no harm in taking certain precautions which may reduce this probability slightly.

Surely is daft and fatalistic to say there's a one in four chance I will be raped, there's bugger all I can do about, when you can do small things that may make a difference?

Surely it is human nature, and not wrong, to weigh up the risks and benefits of choices and act accordingly. That doesn't make it your fault and it doesn't make it victim blaming to make these choices.

Well what does my anecdote tell us?

You can be attacked sober, wearing jeans and a jumper. It doesn't matter what you wear. The point repeatedly made is that tight clothes make you a target. High heels make you a target. Not that you can fight harder and get away easier in jeans and trainers. Perhaps Kevlar and chastity belts would be a better option for girls outside of the home (or inside the home with a man).

the serial rapist picked my friend, sober, chastely dressed to attack. He was a serial attacker. If drunk, high heeled women are easier targets why not wait for them to come out? If there was some kind of heartless logic you could apply to it then this would be rapist wouldn't have be hiding in a bush in the early evening in the suburbs. He'd be at home, sharpening his knives, waiting for last orders in the town centre before venturing out.

With respect to the car analogy - ok so you are more likely to be hit by your own car, and in your own home. Does that really mean you shouldn't bother to look before you cross the road anyway?

Itsgoingtobe - So what are you going to do to avoid being raped by someone you know?

Pomegranate I am so sorry.

I am going to say something facetious and maybe offensive

arm all girl children at birth with high calibre weapons, and let them shoot first and ask questions later, if at all

'Oh you were only going to ask me for directions? I am a bit sorry that i gave you that gaping chest wound. To be fair, though, the onus really was on you to decide beforehand whether or not i might be trigger happy. You really can't be too careful, and we are all responsible for our own safety!'

handbag I would never argue that clothes might make you a target, but you are right, I would argue that should you become a target the clothes you are wearing might affect your chances of getting away.

And whether or not you are drunk certainly would.

BlackOutTheSun

1.I don't believe that because I am more likely raped by someone I knows means I should completely disregard being raped by a stranger.

2.a. Avoiding being raped by an aquaintance: gut instincts, don't get hammered etc etc

2b. Avoiding being raped by a partner - don't be in a shitty relationship.

And yes, of course I might well still be raped - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't exercise some control over factors that may play a small part.

Kevlar, chastity belts and guns then it is its if we're dressing for self preservation.

Focusing on drunkenness, clothing and stranger rape seems a bit weird to me. Stranger rape is rare. It often happens in situations where the woman is overpowered or simply can't get away. The idea that if she were sober and dressed sensibly she would be able to get away is bizarre - do people really think violent, often batshit crazy, rapists give their victims loads of warning and stand back to let them get away? They are usually taller and stronger than the woman. They use the element of surprise or they get the woman into a situation where escape is near impossible such as locking her in a house or a car. Her being drunk or dressed in tight clothes is neither here nor there, I would say the difference those things could make would be so incredibly tiny that it's hardly worth even thinking about.

Yes by never getting drunk and never wearing tight clothes/high heels you could reduce the relatively small amount of threat of a rare occurrence by an incredibly tiny amount. Good for you. You are changing your life and not doing things you want to do for practically nothing. If it makes you feel better, go ahead, but it's not actually going to make much difference to your life apart from making it less fun and more difficult.

Itsallgoingtobefine I would laugh if that post wasn't so fucking depressing!

Good post cailin

I expect this has been linked to before. The delightful Eamonn Holmes indulging in a nice spot of victim blaming on National TV

This bit is particularly pertinent to the discussion:

' That's right. He hopes she takes taxis now. Because the moral of the whole story was that, frankly, none of this would have happened if she hadn't dared to be outside, near her house, when a kidnapper and rapist was around. The victim-blaming attitude encompassed in that one sentence is as astounding as it is offensive.

What if she had got a taxi, and it had been the taxi driver that had assaulted her? It's not unheard of. Would he have ended the interview with, "Well, I hope you don't get taxis alone now"? Or, "well, I hope you don't get into a car with a man you don't know now"?

The truth is that women cannot win with attitudes like Eamonn Holmes's around. As a survivor, I feel it personally when it is insinuated that women should have done more to prevent their own assault. The injustice of that attitude causes me true pain, and I feel helpless in the face of it because as long as we blame the victim, we are not blaming the perpetrator. And if we don't blame the perpetrator, things will never, ever change. '

I've only skimmed the thread so may be repeating others.

I think the biggest problem with things like "don't dress provocatively/get drunk/walk home alone" is not potential victim blaming, but that they don't make you any safer. Most rape victims aren't wearing short skirts and in dark alleys. They're with their partner/friend/colleague. Statistically you're much less likely to be raped in the dark alley.

I think the only way to realistically reduce rapes is to campaign for harsher sentences, better education about consent etc. Not to assume rape is a fact of life we have to protect ourselves from.

You know if 25% of women are raped that means 75% aren't. So it might just be that statistically you're less likely to be raped than not, rather than some marvellous way you have of acting that puts off would be rapists and keeps you out of their proximity.

Originally the whole going out alone, wearing tight clothes, wearing high heels, getting drunk were all focused on as a way to blame the woman. Those kinds of things were brought up in trials to imply that the woman invited the rape through her behaviour. If a woman was shown to be wearing tight clothes then that could actually damage a case, on the understanding that wearing tight clothes is akin to asking to be raped. Of course that idea is totally indefensible these and I seriously doubt any woman would believe that.

Yet, the focus on drunkenness, clothes etc still persists. Why? Why are people so determined to believe that what the woman does is what makes the difference? Is it because we have a beloved fairy story about the big bad rapist wolf, the scary monster, and it has a set script that we need to cling to? Is it because believing that always wearing flat shoes and never drinking will ensure you're not raped is essential for women's sense of safety?

There is absolutely no evidence that what a woman wears plays a part in rape. None. So why is it even being discussed?

The fact is, you are about four-five times more likely to be raped by a friend or partner than a stranger. Shouldn't we be focusing more attention on stopping that, given that there are actually ways for a woman who's been threatened by her partner to then prevent him from raping her in the future?

Sadly I believe its a case of 'I'm a good girl and follow all the rules so it will never happen to me'.

I agree with you BlackOutTheSun it's magical thinking. It"s a way of clawing back some control over a situation which no woman can control.

Maybe also many women don't like the idea that a rapist is more likely to be somone you know or they recognise a situation they've been and don't want to recognise/admit to themselves that they may have been raped. Instead they se up the Stranger Rape Bogey Man who is easy to avoid as long as you'fe a good girl and follow the rules and expectations that society lays out.

Pomegranate

Those points might make sense if people hadn't already acknowledged that they know stranger rape is rare, that following the advice suggested won't guarantee that they will never be raped. People have also acknowledged that what you are wearing/how drunk you are may not make you a target but it may affect your ability to react to a situation. It's silly to argue that it will never make a difference. You can't know that it won't. I would rather try to do something that might help me than not do anything at all. That does not mean that I think I will never be raped but it may reduce my chances under certain circumstances and that is worth it to me.

It is being discussed because OP asked what she should tell her DDs (if anything) that might help protectthem.

I posted my ideas about good self-defence measures (for both both and girls as boys are more likely to be the victims of assault) some way back on the thread.

I would be interested in what those of you who disagree with my (admittedly not exhaustive) list are telling both your DS and DD about self-defence, or are you telling them nothing because doing so blames victims?

Sorry to read about your daughter pomegranate. It's awful that he's still out there without having to live with the consequences of what he's done. :(

I'm curious about that too Edith. I'm also curious about what they tell their children about other risks too. Do they say anything to them about walking home from school/getting into cars with strangers etc or is that all setting them up for victim blaming?

I haven't read the whole thread yet but my feeling is it doesn't really matter what you think, we all know that rapists are the ones in the wrong and females should be able to go out in whatever clothes they want. But life isn't like that and you should always give yourself a fighting chance at saying safe. Don't take unnecessary risks just to make a point, to make a stand.