A question for you: is SAHM/D a *job*?

[AllQuietOnThePippisFront]

That's it really.

But Bonsoir the vast vast majority of parents have no choice. You can't judge the world's working population on a few rich folk in Paris.

The other facet to my life that I have is that I am a stepmother. I don't do the things I do for my DSSs for love - I do them because I believe that, as children, they need to have maximum opportunities to develop. Developing children requires a fairly business-like attitude, IMO - strategies and budgets and personalities all come into play . British parents have the option to pay ££££ for fab boarding schools with amazing facilities and extra-curricular activities but we don't have that option - in France, it's DIY or nothing!

No. When mine were little and I worked p/t, the days I wasn't in an office earning money and stuff were my days off, ie the same as a weekend or holiday.

wordfactory - most parents are not conscious of the way they parent. That is the bottom line and the reason why they place so little value on what they do (and are pretty hazy about what they do do).

But you only have the luxury of devoting so much time to your DC because you are rich Bonsoir. So you can afford to set your bar very high no?

How much would you prepared to do without so your DC could have you at home full time, is a more interesting question? No holidays? No clothes budget? No eating out?

If your DH no longer earned enough to pay for those things would you go back to work?

Parenting unconsciously is not somehting I could ever be accused of .

But I think that is not less so because I have a career. I think some of us are made that way lol!

Definitely not. You have no rights, holidays or sick days or pay!!

Lifestyle choice, yes.

Sure, I have that "luxury" because we, as a family, are hyper privileged (and hard working - we aren't trust funded!). And sure, if we fell on hard times, I would make up the difference, to the best of my abilities. And, tbh, if I had the ability to outsource the sort of education and upbringing we want our children to have, I might want to work more because I might have a problem filling my days. But that is so far from being an issue right now that I don't think about it. The only thought I sometimes entertain, when I get an attractive FT work proposal, is how I would sort the logistics. But that one always defeats me! I have enough practice talking my WOHM friends through their unsatisfactory logistics to know it is a really tough one...

Bonsoir - so what is job worth leaving your children for?
And what is immoral ?

Immoral is working for Coca-Cola or Haribo or some state-funded non-job - to give three easy examples. I do not buy for a second that all jobs are worthwhile - they aren't. The point of jobs is to provide a living for workers. If you already have a living then you can, if you so wish, afford the luxury of doing something more interesting and useful with your time.

But maybe some people find commerce interesting and useful. Your idea of what is interesting might be others idea of dull and boring.

I still dont understand what you think is interesting and useful but anyway, we are miles, in fact acres, apart on this

Commerce is very interesting and useful for humankind - but not when the products peddled are harmful.

Ok so far we have:

SAHM/Dhood is:

a job
a role
an unpaid role
an occupation
a lifestyle choice
a choice
a household managerial position
work
an amateur unpaid role
parenting
a way of life.

Very interesting.

Anymore please? Like I said can we try to stay out of the debate on the value of sahm vs wohm please, this is not about that at all. It is about a def of an activity (that could be another?) as in for example 'prostitution, is that a job?'.
On another thread someone said that their dh considered childminding a 'earning by playing'. Ok that is one's personal take on it but it is counterbalance by the offical view that childminding is a job and the childminder in question has ground to argue the point. I feel that because of the wishy-washyness of sahm (given by motherhood in general, and so wohm are affected too often working double and being told they are not good enough mothers) one has little ground for arguments. This is my reason for wanting to know. (I can feel a topic for my MS dissertation emerge).

(To answer who asked my who do I care, well I care because I am a mother. And I feel that there are so many unresolved issues around the motherhood and I want to explore them because as a mother I have been affected by them one way or another).

Over to you please and thanks to those who replied.

Pippi - another thought, which is one that preoccupies me, is the definition of the word "mother".

(1) A "mother" is someone who has given birth.
(2) A "mother" is a female person who parents.

You do not have to have done 1 to do 2, or vice versa.

I think what I would want to do at this stage is to ask the people who feel strongly that it is not a job, what, apart from money, makes it different from a job?

Because I don't think the answer will be that's it's just about the money and I think it will be interesting.

bonsoir of course that is very true. but of course since in many societies the worth of a woman is tightly linked with being a mother, in both your def a) and b), a perceived 'failure' in either camps is a failure of her entire persona. For a man, on the other hand, fatherhood is something that happens to him alongside other things (and for them fatherhoos is often referred to a) continue the line) and so a failure of b) does not affect their worthiness as much, if considered at all.

I think that the anger between sahm and wohm stems from motherhood and its holy state)

This is a generalised version of course but you get the point.

(pleae don't drown me into a debate I must clean the house )

tunip every single def opens a can of worms - I am holding myself from asking further questions a) because I have a million things to do this morning b) those should be for later. once we have established the variious interpretations and views.

I should have titled the thread DECONSTRUCTING SHAMhood -grin]

Turnip, I'd say it's not a job if you spend the day doing the same things you'd do if you were on holiday in s/c accom, so playing with your kids, pottering around the park, going for coffee or to some child friendly event, then putting together some supper and bunging a wash in the machine, then sitting down with a glass of wine to listen to music or watch tv.

That's what I did on my days off when I worked pt. On the days I did my job, I had to meet court-imposed deadlines, deal with clients, negotiate deals with other solicitors, keep my boss happy by keeping my charging hours up, dictate dozens of letters on dozens of divorce cases, etc etc.

Two entirely different ways of spending the day.

Yes two entirely different ways of spending the day but people spend their days differently doing different jobs too.

A self employed landscape gardener will spend their average day very differently to a corporate lawyer.

Does that mean that a nanny doesn't have a job? Because he/she would be doing all those things, just for someone else's children and not their own.

mumblechum surely you know there is a lot more to it than that? or are those partners who came home from a day work right in demanding to be treated like kings because 'you've been having coffees and a stroll in the park all day'.

having said that if that is all you did when you worked p/t it means you have a great dh/dp who does his share of the work and more. all those I know that work p/t or f/t for that matter are in a constant rush to fit everything in.

also all those things that you mention may not be the ones one wants to do, but they must be done for the sake of the children so I would not quite call it free-time at times. oh and bung something in the oven is the correct term if you do that occasionally but to have to cook and tidy uo three times a day is not quite the same.

what I am trying to say is to be careful about not to make invisible all the million things that parenting involves.

Pippi - obviously bringing a child into the world (up to the point of birth) is very much more effort for the mother than for the father; in that sense, "motherhood" deserves more recognition than "fatherhood".

What muddies the water considerably is who does the work thereafter. Mothers mostly claim to do it all, but do they really? Or is it culturally so unacceptable for female parents not to parent intensively (indeed, not to do the lion's share of the work) that there is massive silence and denial around it?

Really interesting thread and something I've wondered about too OP.
In the early days of the DCs DH used to say that he spent all day at his 'job' so expected me to do a lot - so I pointed out that the DC/house etc was my job. Much debate ensued as to which was the nicer job - of course staying at home was better than been run off feet with stressful deadlines but DH admitted he wouldn't want to do it all the time - as actually then he'd have to do the boring bits too -so having pushed the ' I have a job too' angle DH began to see the DCs as 'my job' that he 'helped' with - definitely unhealthy but he still feels that way - I now work too but that's another argument.

I think that when one partner gives up work to be at home it can easily become perceived that the home and DC stuff is their 'job' as in defined perhaps as their responsibility in the same way that putting out the rubbish is DHs 'job'. As a lot of posters here have pointed out - parenting is a responsibility of both parents - as to the household stuff - the boring bits which seem to be in the same 'job' description as DC caring for a SAHM - that is the job of a SAHM unless you are lucky enough to afford someone to do that for you.

So in answer to your question - yes in terms of it is my 'job' to stay at home and look after the DC and the house ( well and go to work part time ) and DHs 'job' to go to work and earn money to pay the bills and feed us. In our house this is not exactly fair or equal as we have 3 DCs and I work 3.5 days a week - but that is a personal argument) If I wasn't working at all, as the DC are now all at school I would view it as my 'job' to do all that - but I wouldn't say it was a job IYSWIM.
Does this make sense?