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Original poster

Does anyone remove their children from the religious bits at school?

277 replies

WigWamBam · 25/01/2006 11:15

I am Pagan (for want of a better description), and although I would like to bring dd up to have an understanding of world religions, I don't really intend to bring her up with any sort of God in our lives. When she is old enough to make up her own mind then that's fine, but she's only 4 at the moment.

I'm getting a bit concerned about the amount of overtly religious stuff that she's getting at school. It's not a faith school, just a bog standard ordinary state primary. As well as the daily prayer and so on, she's now telling me about other things that have been happening and it seems that twice a week they have visitors from local churches, and the indoctrination has started. Yesterday they were being taught about the promises that God makes to us, and at one point she was asked to make a promise to God. I have no problem with her learning about what some people believe God is and what they believe he does, but from what she tells me this is being presented as undisputed truth, and it makes me uneasy.

I've talked to her before about God and about what certain other religions believe, but from an angle that this is what some people believe, but Mummy and Daddy don't believe that. Now she's being told (by people she believes only teach things that are true) that God is categorically real, and that she has to make promises to him.

I considered taking her out of the religious aspects right from the start, but was assured that it was only a daily prayer ... which is obviously not the case. I'm now considering it again, but I'm not sure whether it would single her out as being different if she wasn't taking part.

I'm not interested in getting into a debate about religion, or whether I'm wrong to feel the way I feel; I just wondered if there's anyone out there who removes their child from the religious aspects, and what the upshot from it has been. I don't want my child taught that things we don't believe in are the truth, but then again I don't want her bullied if I take her away from it.

OP posts:
Klauz33 · 25/01/2006 13:12

WWB - I am in the same situation as you, though don't think that they are as overtly religious as your junior school. Though it will be an issue when my kids go to the primary school (literally round the corner) at 7, which as far as I can tell is heavily C of E and run by a bit of a religious nutcase.

But you know I went to the same school which was run by a different religious nutcase then. Certainly, I had parents who were athesists and gave me the analytical skills to make up my own mind. The school did me no harm, a mild annoyance and certainly did not make me "religious" in any form.

nutcracker · 25/01/2006 13:13

WWB am am completely unreligious too, and both dd's go to a bog standard primary school too, but like your dd's school they are quite into religion.

They regularly have the vicar/preist in to school as the church is over the road, and they go on visits there.

I have decided though to not get upset about it unless I think it is bothering either dd, which at the mo it isn't. They comment on it and then seem to forget all about it.

It's like with Rainbows and Brownies, they attend church parade etc but neither shows a great interest so it doesn't bother me.

KateF · 25/01/2006 13:14

I wish we could take RE out of school completely, and I'm coming at this from the opposite point of view, as a committed Christian who does not want the faith of my family portrayed as a "story". I have been in the same dilemma as WWB about whether to withdraw dd1 from RE but after a discussion with her (lovely) teacher have decided not to as don't want her to stand out at such a young age.
BTW DD1s best friend is Muslim and her parents feel the same way.

jabberwocky · 25/01/2006 13:15

I would be just as upset as you are, WWB. I would be very tempted to remove her, unless you felt she would be the only one and thus find it too upsetting IYKWIM. I'm a little confused too on whether this is a public or private school. In the US, they cannot do this in a public school. Is it allowed in the UK?

harpsichordcarrier · 25/01/2006 13:16

I know you don't want a religious argument wwb but what strikes me most of all about this thread is that having state funded CofE etc schools is cited as increasing "choice" whereas infact the people who have no choice in the state system are the atheists/humanists/rejectors of superstitious nonsense. What choice do we have, really?
and actually, moondog, I think that the best way to avoid the (imho) appalling possibility of a Caliphate is to give our children a rigourous education in religion without indoctrination in any form.

Spidermama · 25/01/2006 13:17

I'm interested in Moondog's perspective as it draws on different cultures of which she has first hand experience.

gomez · 25/01/2006 13:19

Gee whizz Moondog - I was not serious but to be fair it is a reflection of my time at Sunday School 25/30 yeas ago . Kirks do tend to be a bit breezy and if I pick a Wee Free Version then it will be boring to your average 5 year old.

And mean spirts seem to be freely available on this thread at the moment TBH.

Lacrimosa · 25/01/2006 13:23

I have had to take my ds out of all religious education and observance as they were still portraying christianity as what happened instead of something that only some people believe!I cant believe that schools still teach this!My son now activly does not take part in 1/4 of the education that all the other children do because of this in fact he now spends more time actually being educated. religious education is something which I value highly and I believe that the only way to bring him up understandin,non- byass and unpredjudiced is by understanding well, not by being taught by people who dont even know one religion accuratly! rant rant rant

ladbrokegrove · 25/01/2006 13:24

Wwb, this sounds a little excessive for a state primary. Do any other parents have the same feelings as you?

KateF · 25/01/2006 13:25

Harpsichordcarrier-I don't think WWBs school is CofE actually but that debate has been done before! I think the question we are getting into here is whether RE should be taught in school at all. Should education be completely secular thus releasing you from "superstitious nonsense" and me from those who view my faith and that of others as such.

Klauz33 · 25/01/2006 13:26

It makes me so angry that there is any religion in education. I suppose they have to try and get in early and catch them before children have the ability to "think" for themselves. Still they are not doing a very good job of it in the UK - church attendance continues to decrease

Actually I can handle my sons having to listen to all this bullshit as they will no doubt in the fullness of time reject it. But what gets me is the ability of parents outside the catchment area - being able to send their kids to a better school just because they go to church. Absolute madness.

Lacrimosa · 25/01/2006 13:26

RE and RO are legal requirements and you have to opt out it has been this way in britain for over 103 years now, Humanists have been campaining for Secular education for some time now and I hope that the government can re think this very outdated law.

gomez · 25/01/2006 13:27

In school,

Good, diverse well-rounded Religious Education is a good thing.

Religious Observance is not.

IMHO.

Lacrimosa · 25/01/2006 13:28

klauze33! I love you, do you want to start a ranting thread about RE/RO?[tee hee

harpsichordcarrier · 25/01/2006 13:28

no, I know KateF, that was my point - even in a non CofE school our children will take part in a degree of religious observance
I was referring to the arguments I have read (here and elsewhere) justifying the state funding of CofE schools - that it increases choice.
which is balls

KateF · 25/01/2006 13:28

at the vehemence of anti-Christian feeling here.

prettybird · 25/01/2006 13:29

Jabberwocky - in a word..... yes.

In fact, it is alegal requirement to have an act of daily collective worship, with Governemnt guidleines suggesting "just over half of the year's worship should be Christian, with the remaining 49% concerning other faiths.

However, schools can opt out of the Christian aspect if the background of pupils would make it inappropriate.

Likewise, parents can withdraw their pupils from collective worship without giving a reason."

(Quoted from the BBC)

I have to say, as an atheist, I am coming round more and more to the view of "Disestablishmentarianism", ie separating Church from State.

harpsichordcarrier · 25/01/2006 13:29

I agree gomez. concisely put.
KateF, what anti-christian feeling?

frogs · 25/01/2006 13:31

This was in the late and unlamented GDR (East Germany).

I think it's easy to overestimate how strongly (and particularly, how lastingly) children are affected by things they are told at school. I remember going through a very commie phase as a child, in the full knowledge that it would annoy my parents. Moving swiftly through 180 degrees, as a teenager back in the UK I annoyed my parents by being very devout (we're Catholics) and insisting on everyone going to Mass every Sunday (once every couple of months would have been fine by my mother).

Maybe there's a tendency now to feel more strongly that we want to control what and how and when our children are taught? I don't recall my parents getting overly excited about what we were being told at school, though my mother did overreact somewhat when my younger sister wanted to join the local (UK) village Brownie pack ('No child of mine... proto-fascist paramilitary organisation...' You get the picture). And she did blanch slightly when I told her years after the event how we'd spent a couple of PE lessons in my GDR primary school learning how to throw plastic handgrenades at the class enemy.

So no, I wouldn't get that excited about a Reception child making a few promises to God or to Allah or Jehovah for that matter. Assuming they're not sacrificing fluffy bunnies in Reception assembly, I suspect no lasting harm will result.

harpsichordcarrier · 25/01/2006 13:31

KateF - to answer your question YES state funded schools should teach ANY religion as truth, nor be required to carry out religious observance.
Religious EDUCATION is a different matter.

Lacrimosa · 25/01/2006 13:32

IMHO its not anti christian its anti any religion at school and whatever religion you choose to be is fine just dont want it near the kids, I feel that it is too much ds has progressed beyond all children in his class by doing 'normal' school work at RE RO times and he has learning difficulties!

harpsichordcarrier · 25/01/2006 13:32

sorry - "should NOT teach..."

KateF · 25/01/2006 13:33

Agree with you on that point Harpsichordcarrier. It just shows what a muddle the whole thing is. Secular education is the way forward in my opinion but then you come up against the problems they have had in France. Personally I feel people should be able to express their religion (wear hijab etc)but that it should not be a curriculum subject.

KateF · 25/01/2006 13:35

Harpsi-er "all this bullshit" "superstitious nonsense" "get in early before they can think"

Klauz33 · 25/01/2006 13:36

Don't get me started....

I can't believe it Blair has made the education system more divisive, not less. And I understand he is promising more faith schools in the latest white paper. Are they totally insane?

A school is not allowed to discriminate on colour, race, sexuality, wealth but they are allowed to discriminate on whether you go to church and are mates with your local vicar/priest. Its not like normal state schools are short of religious education and observance.