Does anyone remove their children from the religious bits at school?

[WigWamBam]

I am Pagan (for want of a better description), and although I would like to bring dd up to have an understanding of world religions, I don't really intend to bring her up with any sort of God in our lives. When she is old enough to make up her own mind then that's fine, but she's only 4 at the moment.

I'm getting a bit concerned about the amount of overtly religious stuff that she's getting at school. It's not a faith school, just a bog standard ordinary state primary. As well as the daily prayer and so on, she's now telling me about other things that have been happening and it seems that twice a week they have visitors from local churches, and the indoctrination has started. Yesterday they were being taught about the promises that God makes to us, and at one point she was asked to make a promise to God. I have no problem with her learning about what some people believe God is and what they believe he does, but from what she tells me this is being presented as undisputed truth, and it makes me uneasy.

I've talked to her before about God and about what certain other religions believe, but from an angle that this is what some people believe, but Mummy and Daddy don't believe that. Now she's being told (by people she believes only teach things that are true) that God is categorically real, and that she has to make promises to him.

I considered taking her out of the religious aspects right from the start, but was assured that it was only a daily prayer ... which is obviously not the case. I'm now considering it again, but I'm not sure whether it would single her out as being different if she wasn't taking part.

I'm not interested in getting into a debate about religion, or whether I'm wrong to feel the way I feel; I just wondered if there's anyone out there who removes their child from the religious aspects, and what the upshot from it has been. I don't want my child taught that things we don't believe in are the truth, but then again I don't want her bullied if I take her away from it.

WWB, I believe in God and am CofE - ds1 goes to a 'bog standard state school' (as you put it ). Like you, I'm very happy for him to learn about all religions in a 'broadening knowledge' kind of way, but I too would not like him to be taught that God categorically exists and makes promises to us. I think that in a non-faith school the emphasis should be on what some people believe but the actual 'this is what we and you should believe' should be down to parents only.

I think if I were you I'd make an appt to see the head and just have a relaxed chat with her about it - just in a kind of 'I'd just like to find out a bit more about how you approach religious education' type of way. Sorry if someone has already said this!

I wouldn't worry, personally. At that age I was being taught Marxism-Leninism, and reciting little poems eulogising tractor-drivers and heroes of the revolution. I would have been mortified if my parents had tried to withdraw me (not that that would have been an option).

And now I vote LibDem. Make of that what you will.

GDG, perhaps "bog standard" was the wrong choice of phrase . The school is a very good one and we're really happy with it.

It was the making promises thing that has really got me thinking about this again, and you're right that the emphasis should be on what some people believe. I certainly don't remember anything as personal as making promises to God being included in school when I was young ... it's the personal nature of it that I think I'm uneasy with rather than the fact that the children are getting a broad-based knowledge of world religions.

Jasnem, sounds awful but I hadn't even thought about it being awkward for the teachers!!

What are you on about with your cracks in the pavement stuff geekgirl??

Feistybird,I live in Wales and ultra conservative Turkey.
If my child goes to school in a Muslim country,would be very happy indeed for her to learn about the Koran (although wouldn't happen in Turkey as state and religious matters are kept separate as in France.)

If your kid comes home accepting that what she has been told in school is 'gospel' so to speak,then I feel it says more about the nature of debate re relative 'truths' in one's own home than it does indoctrination.

I was immersed in all sorts of bonkers stuff-used to sing songs about 'my heart being black with sin,until the Lord came in' in the middles of the Pacific (surrounded by Melanesians) under the guidance of Christian zealots from Alabama.

In university,hung out with Hindus.

In Turkey,have spent a lot of time with radical Muslims.

Life's rich tapestry and all that.I don't want my children fed a pre approved stream of Moondog sanctioned information.
Where's the fun and challenge in that????

WWB - I would be half way between Frogs' pov, and feeling indignant that the school really has no business incorporating all this (which they don't), and Having A Word.

Moondog - how is that relevant? And pretty patronising, too.

"school is a place she associates with learning the truth" - as opposed to home, where wwb recounts all kinds of crap.

It is the manner in which these views are presented - whether in school, at home, or in broader society. If the school has co-ordinated visits from different faiths, then perhaps each can 'showcase' their core beliefs / histories / major festivals etc. but nonetheless this should be within a school-managed 'this is some of what's out there, kids' approach (IMHO). I think the problem is when any faith represents its beliefs as Ultimate Truth rather than acknowledging that these are THEIR beliefs and that others may hold different beliefs which (in theory) may be equally valid.

Would be very interested in how the head sees his / her role in all this wwb, and what 'style' of RE is supported by the school.

Well,it's up to you Blu to see how it is relevant.
If you can't,then my point has been proven even more strongly.

Moondog - I am referring to your first post.

2nd post - yes I do think that is a discussable point. 3rd post - patronising AND arrogant.

I'll live with it.

as a geographer and comfirmed Darwinist, i do find it a struggle to get dd1 to accept that not everybody believes that God created the Earth and she thinks my idea of plate tectonics is ludicrous cos 'Mr Fraser y'know mummy the man with the beard' has told them how the Earth was made and in her mind, that's that!

now now WWB said in her first post she didn;t want to start a debate.

I think fennel has the best take on this - various versions of the truth. That way, you tell your children what you think and they can chat to you about school. I wouldn't go into school tbh, and I certainly wouldn't take them out and make them look 'different'.

My parents are religious (born again chrisitans - no, I have no idea either) and my dad was most put out when I brought home a book on dinosaurs 'there is no such thing as evolution' etc etc but it led to lively discussions.

I felt sad for the one muslim girl at dd's school who sat watching the other 89 children in her year doing the nativity play. I couldn't quite understand why she was barred from doing it as a piece of theatre. My kids are not Christian so to them it's theatre.

I felt she was disallowed from joining in and made to sit outside her group of peers, and yet we're all supposed to bend over backwards to make sure everyone fits in.

I'm probably missing the point somewhere (where's stitch when you need her?) but I felt really sorry for this girl and felt that if she wasn't allowed to join in she should at least have been allowed to take the day off rather than compound her lonliness by having her watch the thing.

I am just preparing stuff for my bash at Sunday school (Jonah and the Whale which I thought would be timely) and it has bee really interesting surfing the web and reading the Christian,then the Muslim version of this (one and the same basically).

I've, you know........learnt something.

WWB, I would go into the school and have a chat to them. If she's only 4, you may well not be hearing the whole truth (not suggesting she's lying but they only remember bits and pieces of school at that age).

We are in the same situation as you are re religion and I have no problem with dd and ds doing RE at school because it appears they represent all faiths rather than just one. In fact, I'm quite delighted that my two will come out of primary school having some sort of understanding about what the main religions are and how different religions celebrate their different festivals. I don't think I would be overly happy if I felt they were pushing one religion over all others but I think unless you go in and talk to them, you won't find out exactly what's going on.

Moondog, I appreciate your point, but my dd is 4 years old, and for me a four year old doesn't go to school to be making promises to God. Your opinion on how I'm teaching her at home is of no interest to me and has no relevance to the question that I was asking. I wasn't interested in a discussion about religion, just in finding out whether other people had removed their children, and what the results had been.

Fennel's point about different varieties of the truth is one that I liked, and something that maybe I can use when I discuss this with my daughter. For me it's about the way it's being presented as The One Truth, even in a school where there are a fair number of children from other faiths and I will certainly be having a chat with the school about the way that they are approaching RE.

Spidermama, I agree about seeing it as theatre - that's the way that the school seems to be treating other religions at the moment, and the children are seeing it as just stories. From that perspective I would be happy for my dd to be hearing about Christianity - but Christianity is being treated differently to the other world religions, which in my view is wrong.

Gosh WWB,I had no idea that you had recently been appointed Chief Controller of Threads!!

This is a discussion-you can't order us about.It's not hopscotch y'know.

a technicality - i didn't suggest there were "various versions of the truth", rather that different adults believe different things to be true, which are not always mutually compatible.

whether or not there can be various versions of one truth is another issue and one which i would also enjoy debating

(Q to Frogs - where did you grow up? I had a similar experience, in Romania.)

Right - carry on with a blazing row if you like; I asked for advice, not a bloody lecture.

Thank you to all who have suggested ways I can deal with this but I'm leaving you all to get on with it now. I wasn't after theological discussion, I was asking for advice on a situation which has left me unsure on what to do.

Frogs and Cristina..when did you realise the weaknesses of what you were being taught? (If indeed you did??)

When I lived in Russian,one of my students told me that she clearly remembers being about 7 and absolutely horrified when her mother said something like 'I'm sick of bloody Lenin!'

hmm I don't know, it IS tricky
because of course you are teaching your dd to respect and pay attention to what she is told by adults at school. you are putting her impressionable mind in their hands.
to then ask her to pay less attention, or treat something that she is told as "gospel" as a story.... that is a pretty subtle and confusing distinctiopn for a four year old.
The thing is - I think the other alternative isnn't very palatable either - a four year old WON'T want to be different.
I think the best solution is to askt he school to reconsider what is meant by religious EDUCATION rather than indoctrination
good luck wwb

DH and I thought long and hard about this when DD1 started school last summer. What I wasn't aware was that even non-denominational schools are required to undertake religious observance in addition to religious education. The Scottish Executive has made the call that since around 65% of Scotland is Church of Scotland this would be the form of of observance in Scottish schools and is required on at least 6 occasions each year. This is in addition to religious education which covers all different faiths (but not I note agnostics or atheists anyway). We felt removing her from this would be unfair - for all the reasons already listed. And of course religous education is a good thing.

What we continued to object to and have dicussed with the School twice to date is the use of Christian poetry (why not use secular poems) or hymns for music classes (same applies) for example. Got a pile of flannel from the school TBH. Then explored lots of other options and are really disappointed to discover, but not surprised, that we can't get a secular education in Scotland.

As an aside I am currently trying to find a Sunday School for DD1 to attend as she 'knows Mummy & Daddy don't believe in God' but well she does so there! I hoping that a few Sundays of freezing her bits off and being bored rigid (of course I will need to chose my Sunday School carefully) will soon knock that out of her.

Moondog - learning things is very different from being required to worship which is what attending church or religious assemblies is all about.

Moondog, Jeez, what is your problem today? WWB asked a question, it is allowed, why are you attacking her?

Gomez,what a weird approach to Sunday school and the people who run them (usually in their own time.)

How mean spirited!!