.... to be fed-up when people moan about not being about to conceive DC 2/3/4/5/6/whatever

[AuntieDoris]

... when I can't even manage to get pregnant with number 1?

I know it doesn't make any difference to me but it still unreasonably winds me up :(

Exactly Tilly.

you can't get away from the fact that Secondary infertility means in most cases that you already have a child. Someone who has never been able to get that far would surely feel a bit sensitive and upset about another person moaning that they only have 1. 'At least you have a child' went round and round my head a lot when I was TTC no1. I was also gobsmacked by the people who told me they went to get tests done after not conceiving in the first three months. Many people really are oblivious to the hurt that infertility causes, having suffered from it and come out the other side I am more sympathetic towards anyone who has or is suffering but I still do feel that if you have a child already then you are a little bit luckier than those who have none.

I've reported this shameful thread. This is not a game. We're talking about peoples lives here. Can people not stop for a minute and think about the person at the other end of the computer. They may just be words on a screen but words can devestate and hurt so much. Please please have some respect and compassion and stop.

iMemoo - why report the thread? Surely everyone is entitled to their opinion? It is sad that people find things that other people say hurtful, it does not mean it is not the persons right to say it. The thread title is clear, people can choose not to read it and they can choose to hide it. If people want to discuss & debate an issue that affects many people, why shouldn't they?

Sensitivity is something that has been in short supply on here, by some of the people shouting for it the loudest.

I do take your point, TheReal, but one person's attempt to be sensitive about a subject this emotive is another person's kick in the teeth. My BIL and SIL tried to be sensitive to us by keeping their fourth pregnancy a secret after we lost our son. I appreciate their hearts were in the right place but at the time it hurt so much more to feel excluded and marginalised, like they felt I was so unstable or so selfish that I couldn't cope with or be pleased about their baby. That wasn't fair or rational of me, and I got over feeling like it and understood what they had meant by it. They were trying to be kind.

For every person who resents hearing someone complain on a bad day, another could be finding hope from hearing how some people have succeeded in having a child and are now trying again. I know that's how it was on the grief forum anyway, the days when I felt I would never have a living child were the days I needed someone who had been in my situation to give me some hope or the strength to think "well if they can keep trying so can I."

Not to mention that many many people have take the time, effort & personal strength to tell their stories so that people might understand their pain, so that people might learn. Just because it hasn't changed everyone's opinion doesn't mean it hasn't helped someone, it certainly doesn't mean it's not helping people who are lurking on the thread. You can't just get a thread pulled because some people are getting upset about another person's POV. Debate it, disagree with it, hide it... but don't police it.

The problem imo with this thread is that it's putting up barriers where none need to be. What troubles me is that some people seem to actively want that - I don't understand that at all. That's the problem with comparisons - it immediately places a 'value' on situations. Those who say they are not comparing, they are simply asserting that one situation is worse are doing that to an extreme. Of course this thread should be pulled. People may have opinions but when opinions do damage you should be asking yourself 'is my right to express my opinion really over-riding the harm done to the real person reading this whose heart is breaking?'
I am aware I've had a fair bit of flak over my posting on this thread. I want to say again that i am posting here not because I favour one side or the other but because there damn well should not be sides! The threads in conception and infertility are not divided by primary and secondary. It was a common space and for a lot of people reading this that has changed. What a terrible shame that is.

'And for people who don't know much about infertility, I hope it makes them see how devastating it is for people going throught it - because understanding was in very short supply when I was.'

Very true.

I know I have learned a lot from this thread. Thank you everyone who has posted your stories.

I know it is also very upsetting. There are whole sections of MN I avoid because they would upset me, but I don't think other people should stop talking about it on my behalf. I don't think we should be censoring ourselves.

The thread title is really unfortunate, however it's also a pretty good indication of what's inside and thus it can be hidden.

I agree with evverything NorthernLurker said.

And when people are being called dickheads for talking about their secondry infertility I think it's time to draw a line under it.

Nobody was called a dickhead for talking about their secondary infertility.

Stop making stuff up.

Hi all,

We can see from this thread - and our mailbox - that this thread has caused some posters a lot of heartache. But we can also see that there are some very moving, very helpful and very interesting posts.

We think perhaps it's worth moving this thread from AIBU to Other Subjects in the hope that the discussion can continue in a wholly reflective, helpful and mutually supportive way.

There are times when the naturally rather more combative structure of AIBU convo is really not suited to the subject matter - and we think this is one of them.

Best wishes
MNHQ

'Nobody was called a dickhead for talking about their secondary infertility.'

Really?

'I just don't get what kind of dickhead you have to be to be a mother and tell a childless woman with infertility that your infertility is just as bad.'

That would be you writing, Shecutofftheirtails.

Shecutofftheirtails

'I just don't get what kind of dickhead you have to be to be a mother and tell a childless woman with infertility that your infertility is just as bad.'

You don't think that is a truly awful thing to say??

erm, she is right though. It would be a totally insensitive thing to do ...tell a childless woman (or couple) that your secondary infertility is just as bad as theirs. Of course no one would be that insensitive but if someone was then surely that would make them a bit of a dickhead? I mean really, it would? No one was being called a dickhead, the poster was writing down a scenario that I am sure all of us would agree would be awful but that none of us would do.

to say " And when people are being called dickheads for talking about their secondry infertility " then it is perfectly correct that no one was called a dickhead for just talking about their secondary infertility.

Yes, and I stand by that.

But that is not even close to saying that secondary infertility shouldn't be spoken about.

Just that if you have a child, or children, you shouldn't be telling women who don't that your pain is the same as theirs.

I am coming to this from the perspective of someone suffering secondary infertility (because that's all they count), but who would never compare my sadness at not having 3 with that of women struggling to have 2.

It is believed that I have had multiple chemical pregnancies in recent months. But I would not measure that against a woman who has had multiple miscarriages, because I don't believe my frustration and disappointment could come close to the devastation of losing pregnancies I had become emotionally attached to (which is why I don't test).

You keep suggesting that I want to encourage people to compare pain for the purpose of winning. But what I am saying is the opposite - that understanding is helped by recognising that you aren't always the one with the worst pain.

So the OP is having a bad day, and is (understandably, IMO) giving out about listening to people (like me) complaining about their infertility.

So I think, "I'm doing OK at the moment, I'll field this one." and offer a sympathetic ear and maybe some gentle insight into the very real pain caused by all infertility.

You are saying that she (and the many other people on this thread who agree with her to a greater or lesser extent) are not allowed to express those feelings.

I really have a problem with that. And with the accusations that I'm coming to this from a place of unkindness.

It's not your opinion that I object to, it the aggressive way in which you have expressed yourself. Why can't you express your opinion without steamrollering over the feelings of others?

There are a lot of disingenuous posts on this thread which seem intent purely on point scoring rather than having a considered discussion.

I also know of at least 2 people who have been getting and offering support on the conception threads who have now left mumsnet. That makes me really sad.

Going to hide this thread now. It's making me sick to the stomach.

Surely this is all about the loss of a dream? Whether its being a parent, or having another child?

How can you quantify the value of a dream and the price you pay in seeing it go unfulfilled?

The woman who loses the dream of being a mother must see reminders in the face of every child.

The mother who cannot have a second child may seem to have lost less but she also loses the sibling for her son or daughter and must feel their loss too.

It seems to me that each person in their own way is grieving for the loss of a child who, even though they may never have taken a breath, exist in hearts and minds.

There are so many injustices in this world already without lashing out at those who are suffering as well. We're stronger if we stand by one another and agree that the world isn't fair, this isn't how it should be and that we would take away the other's pain if we could.

Agree with imemoo and think I will also hide this thread now

I would like to say though if there is anyone going through any of the problems talked about on this thread or anyone who suffers from infertility problems or pg loss in the future the conception topic and also the pg/mc topics are full of sympathetic people willing to help you if you need someone to talk, no matter if it's ttc a first or 5th baby

i have found it really useful to hear other people's stories & comments.

An AIBU is not a supportive thread. it is forum for debate, so posters are going have different views. if you dont want to hear other views, you should not read the thread.

Actually I think MNHQ should be on a sharper look out for threads that need a speedy move out of AIBU - especially those which are really looking for some support from others. Glad it's been moved but think it could have happened sooner ...