.... to be fed-up when people moan about not being about to conceive DC 2/3/4/5/6/whatever

[AuntieDoris]

... when I can't even manage to get pregnant with number 1?

I know it doesn't make any difference to me but it still unreasonably winds me up :(

To be fair, the OP says she knows she's being unreasonable. I think it's unreasonable not to be able to imagine why she might be feeling unreasonable about this unreasonable situation, personally.

i think the title is very different to the ensuing thread....

yabu to be 'fed up when people moan' because that is their pain and imo they can moan away if it helps...

Infertility is definitely harder than secondary infertility - without a doubt - but i would never condemn anyones heartache nor their right to express it

I don't think the OP meant "no moaning" in general. I think she probably meant that it's not exactly sensitive of people who moan to her (or in front of her) despite knowing her situation.

sorry I've not been able to get back on. dh has been rather selfishly hogging the laptop. I have sent him upstairs to think abut his behaviour.

I was very, very upset about this thread, for various reasons. however, I have spoken to both the op and jodie offboard and I know that noone meant any offence or harm. The fact is, infertility is shit. it turns you into a whole different person and you think and say things that you wouldnt normally. you become bitter and angry. I liken it to sitting in a waiting room, while everyone else comes and goes. and you wait and wait, and everyone else gets their turn, while you are still there wondering whats wrong with you.

its still a very taboo subject, and the ignorance surrounding IF is pretty disgusting. I believe that when kids have their sex ed/relationships chat, they should touch on IF too, because 1 in 8 women are infertile. not accounting for male factor IF, or recurrent mc. but we dont talk about it, so we shut it all in and lash out at those who seem to have it better.

we were ttc ds for nearly 4 years, and werent using contraception for a further 18m priorr to that. we didnt think we would be able to have a child at all and when ds was born after a horrendous pg I felt like the curse had been lifted. we started ttc when he was 3m old, and 3m later I was pg again. the relief I felt at being able to do this properly, finally was the closest to peace I think I have ever felt.

then on a plane back from spain I miscarried. I walked though customs with blood visibly rolling down my legs and my 6mo son clutched to me while I cried. six years on I have had 12 more miscarriages and nearly died thanks to complications from a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. Over the years I have spoken to many, many women on here who are desperate for a child, whether it is their first or their sixth. My heart breaks for any couple (cause, lets not forget the men, the look on dh's face at my last "oops, no baby - sorry" scan is something that haunts me) who has to stare at their knickers every month and wipe their faces before they leave the loo.

I plaster on a smile for ds. he asks me for a sibling every christmas and birthday. I get people telling me that he must be lonely, arent I worried about his social skills etc (Im only ever nice the first time) others plaster on a smile for work collegues, or family members. But I tell you, that first mc broke my heart just as much as the last one I had. Its all pain in the end, and it all matters.

sorry for rambling.

Lissie

People are insensitive. My own mum said to me 'an only child is a lonely child' and constantly asked me if I was having more even though she knew I struggled for years to conceive and had reduced fertility as a result of an ectopic.

I never ask couples if they want kids. I never ask people if they want more. You just don't know what upset it will cause.

Lissie you have had far, far more than your fair share of pain. Of course it matters. Hugely. What you have been through is unspeakable, beyond what I can imagine. I have read your posts in the past and felt just heartbroken for you.

Your posts on the subject are hugely informative and valuable - I would not know half of what is involved for friends who have fertility issues were it not for people like you opening up on this forum. And I hope that it has helped me understand and be more sensitive because otherwise it is easy to take the plastered-on smile at face value.

Perhaps this thread - even though very, very raw - serves a similar purpose?

So please please do keep posting. There are lots of lurkers who are getting some of the education on MN that didn't happen at school.

I think I understand more about primary infertility now, fortunately it is something I have not suffered with, now secondary infertility I am very familiar with!
I have a severely autistic child who is miraculously asleep upstairs, he will never marry, lead an independant life, give me grandchildren BUT I have him and therin lies the difference.
Thank you for the people who have shared their stories and truly from the bottom of my heart I hope your dreams come true.

I think people mostly look on an emotive topic like this with a perspective from their own experiences.

For me TTC#1 was fucking terrifying years spent wondering if I'd ever be a parent. Faced with the awful diagnosis that we couldn't have children I tried to think what I could do that would give my life any point, any meaning. It was awful.

Thankfully, they were wrong, we did have a daughter (in fact we had 2) and I found my place as a mother the happiest place I have ever been, where I feel most at ease in the world.

So to me, when I think about infertility I remember the dark days, will I get to be a mother or won't I?

A close friend of mine had her DS 'easily' but is currently going to hell and back to have #2. They have had recurrent miscarriages and stillbirths. It is beyond hell for her and I don't doubt it.

Can I say what I went through was worse? No, she has seen so much pain
But even so, when I read this thread my instinct, deep down, is that being faced with childlessness is the worst situation. I would never voice that opinion out loud, I know its not right as it belittles the situation my friend is in but its still my gut instinct and I can't change that.

It has made me so sad to read this thread and all the pain on it. I think everything is relative. One persons pain can't be compared to another's as we all cope differently. I will never have a child. I will never marry or have a proper relationship. I was 5 years old when I started being raped and tortured by my family. I can honestly say except for my pets I have never been loved. Ever. I am about to lose my home and may be living on the streets in 4 months. But you know what. I am happy most of the time. I would rather be me than a women with a gorgeous big house, lots of money and a loving husband but who cannot have a child and is suicidal and depressed. Her pain is greater than mine even though if you made an objective list I don't sound like I have much to be happy about.

I think all we can do is try and be kind to each other and help each other out as best we can. And if it helps for OP to post her pain and for others to discuss I think that is a good thing.

SkinnedAlive you sound like an incredibly kind and generous soul. Just lovely. I hope very much that things take a turn for the better for you and that you carry on being happy .

i have been dithering whether to reply on this thread

dh and i ttc for 3 years for our first baby - i said to the doctor that i wanted tests done as i was getting old - stared ttc at 34 and he said i wasnt old etc give it a year and eventually we went for tests

dh sperm came back fine and i went through the indignity's of scans and internals etc - my friend called one the dildo cam and made me laugh - as if you dont laugh you cry, and i did plenty of that EVERY month af came i sobbed

i had another appointment and i decided to attend it as i NEEDED to know if any reason why i couldnt conceive

seems i dont have enough hormones in me and just needed to be given a push in the right direction and will need clomid

but the devastating thing is that 2 weeks before 'that' appointment dh very sadly killed his self :(

so now im 38 and very unlikely to become a mum and that fucking breaks my heart - as well as dealing with the death of my dh :(

as another poster pointed out, whether you are ttc no 1 or 2/3/4/5 - it is pain - but different whether losing an arm or leg (or something like that) and i totally agree

i also have a friend who has sadly had 2 mc and one evening just before dh committed suicide so about 7mths ago she said to me, that i was lucky not to have the pain that she had by losing a baby - and i disagreed and said was her pain more then mine as least she knew she could get pregnant and i couldnt and seemed no reason why not at the time

but looking back, its still pain - doesnt matter why our hearts break and we cry - its the fact we do :(

Blondes :( Don't discount it yet - life is a series of twists & turns. It's far too early (well IMHO) for you to think about life with anyone else or having anyone else's babies yet, but 38 isn't old these days, you have another 10 or so years where you could get pregnant, you just don't know and at least now you know that clomid will help you. Even if you are never ready to have another man in your life - you could choose to go it alone to have a baby. Not what you wanted & not ideal I know... but you still have options, even if they don't include the one you really really want :( xx

There are all sorts of grief when it comes to infertility.
I tried for years to concieve, then split up with then partner, we really couldn't get over the grief we had together.
Few years down the line had a new partner all was going swimmingly, we had moved in together, he was talking about a future I had been afraid to verbalise...having kids together or at least trying.
Except we really werent on the same page, as he was shagging other women, so I when I found out I threw him out.
That was it for me.
I am now in the position 2 yrs later of being 44, single, unable to contemplate the thought of starting up a reationship ever again, and trying to come to terms with the fact that parenthood is just not in my future.
I dont verbalise this at all. I just keep it to myself. The pain is too deep to bring it out, I feel if I were to actually start talking about it I would break down and never get up again. Ever.

blondes that was such a brave post. Hope and pray, some way, you do have a child if that is still something you would like.

YANBU because they are your feelings! It's important to have those feelings whether we validate them here or not imo!
You are entitled to feel how you do.
Infertility is uniquely painful I think, it can be the most horribly invisible and destructive thing to deal with and you can't talk about it easily because the whole subject seems to trigger tactlessness in others on an intergalactic scale.
And I disagree, I think infertility when you have no child is ime much much more painful than infertility when you have one already. It's leagues more painful. It does hurt like hell when you can't have another but at least you have had one precious one.
I also got over my mc when I had my second and I don't even think about it now, it's like it was wiped out by dd. I know that's not everyone's experience but it was mine.
I think your feelings of loss and injustice are important for you to feel and then when you're ready to let go of if you can.
Throwing yourself into life seems to be the best thing once you are ready and filling you life with other things you love.

also, stopping trying was what helped me conceive, I know it's counter intuitive and almost impossible to do - but it really worked. when dh and I accepted we might never have a child and still loved each other to have intimacy without it having the loaded nightmare of 'failed baby making' it's as if the pressure was off and I got pg.
DD was the same, we gave up on having another and then she arrived. Weird.
(I was taking a course of clomid too for her, so that was a factor perhaps but I'll never know now.)

I've been thinking way to much about this thread and my initial feelings were pain and anger.

Especially after op posting on a thread where people were talking about their reaccuring mc and infertility and the pain of ttc dc1/2/3/4 and obviously having read posts like my own, to then start a thread about being fed up with people moaning about not being able to conceive anything but their first is just insensitive .

To me that shows you read all the sort of things that have been put on here, posts like mine seams, lissies and others, people going through unbelievable pain, yet you still felt the need to post that you are fed up of listening to the likes of us moaning .

It is an emotive subject infertility and loss are extremely painful. When I mc what should have been my 3 rd dc last year after ttc for 14 months the pain was indescribable and the pain dp went through loosing what should have been his first dc haunts me. We conceived ds3 straight after who was born at 32 weeks by emc due to cord prolapse, I was under ga but dp had to watch them try and resuscitate him, intubate him, and other invasive painful procedures that I luckily didn't see. He also had to go back to work two days later but was at the hospital straight after work till 12 and back in again before work at 5 whilst watching me in pain and suffering from infections.

When we lost ds4 3 weeks ago at 20 weeks he again had to watch me go through painful invasive procedures while I was lucky enough to be totally out of it on gas and air. He arranged the funeral, again had to go straight back to work whilst grieving and trying his best to make sure me and the other dc are ok, all while grieving for his df who passed away suddenly at Xmas. Is his pain more than mine? Some times I think so, I don't know how I'd have got through it all without him.

For me and I know for him too the stress, pain and worry when I was ttc ds1 and for him ds3 ( his first) that we would never become parents was unimaginable but nothing compaired to loosing and burying our son.

There is so much pain on this thread from ttc , recurring mc, stillbirth and loosing a dh, not to mention skinnedalive story of abuse that I don't think anyone can say what is more painful.

You said on the other thread that you have been ttc for just over a year, for some people this happens and they become pg, never to have any other problems, I hope you will be one of those people

mrszimmerman me too, when I accepted it wouldn't happen - it did.

So many heart breaking stories on here, but such strength and bravery.

Oh yes, OP, YANBU
The OP asked was it unreasonable to be fed up with people moaning. she didnt say other people were being difficult or mean or not entitle to their feelings.
We are all entitled to our feelings.

Moomin I'm so sorry.

People can be insensitive and I suspect thats what the OP is herself moaing about. In my experience the most insensitive people are the ones who think they are struggling to conceive a second time (ie they're been trying for 3-6 months) having got pregnant pretty easily before.

Most people with serious infertility problems (ie requiring some form of medical intervention) IME are very sympathetic to anyone else suffering something similar. They have a great deal of empathy beause they have been there.

But:

• anyone who has had a live birth doesn't understand what it is like to not be able to have one;
• anyone who hasn't suffered from a miscarriage doesn't understand what its like to have one;
• anyone who hasn't adopted doesn;t understand what it is like to adopt;
• anyone who hasn't lost a child doesn;t understand what it is like to lose one.

It's just not possible because you haven't been through it, though some people naturally have more empathy than others.

The grief you feel at never becoming a parent is different to suffering repeated miscarriages when you already have a child which is different to the pain of losing a child. They are different because you are grieving for the loss of completely different things. Also the depth of your grief will depend on you and your situation and the nature of the loss and many other things. There are so many variables that it's impossible to try to neatly categorise the degree of suffering and I'm not sure what would be gained even if you could.

The grief I have at being unable to get pregnant is differnt now that I have DS. It is still there - adopting DS did not cure me but it did give me a degree of perspective along with a 10 year time lapse which has been very healing. And I also found that the trauma's and potential disasters along the path to DS's adoption very quickly overtook the previous trauma's of infertility, IVF, IUI's etc.

The slight irritation I have when people moan to me (yes moan) that they have spend three months TTC is very mild and generally just an internal lifted eyebrow and a "you have no idea " to myself. But when I was going through it I had no perspective, I was totally consumed by my own pain and anxieties and really it wasn't reasonable to think I was going to have much empathy with anyone who already had what appeared to me to be the holy grail - a child.

Those of you who have jumped on the OP because you are defending your friend and her pain haven't been through the total despair that infertility brings or maybe have a degree of distance or a success to mitigate the impact. When you are in the throes of it the dark bloody overwhelmingness of it is appalling - and even if you don't agree with her wording, harsh words and grumpy posts show no greater empathy.

"mrszimmerman me too, when I accepted it wouldn't happen - it did."

Sorry I know thats well meant - but that comment (which I received repeatedly) pissed me off 10 years ago and it still pisses me off now.

There are a number of women with "unexplained" infertility who aren't infertile at all, it just takes them longer to get pregnant than the average. They will probably get pregnant if they keep trying long enough. Though there is some evidence that stress doesn't help if you are ttc, if you have fertility problems they are not magically cured by relaxing. Nor are they cured when you adopt which is another constant refrain which made me want to commit an illegal act on the person unsutiable for publishing on a paretning forum.