is mumsnet sexist?

[Tortington]

just wondering?

wobblyknicks, the dadslib/M2T row blew up in one of the Chat pubs!

Where are you jbr?

I haven't read any of this, and I get the impression there's a lot of it to read, here on on other threads, so I am just going to type in a quick answer - first thoughts. Then I'm going to catch up and might come back again.

Well, yes, I do think (sometimes) there's a element of sexism here. No person or thread in particular, and I don't think posters are sexist on purpose. It just happens in the heat of the moment. And people often seem to post when they are feeling really down, upset, hormones surging through them, awful experience with dh or dp, etc. Sometimes people come on here to vent, not to be PC. I do think anyone, male or female must make some allowances for this on some threads. Depends on the thread. Just my opinion.

I also think men have a right to butt in and say how it seems from their angle, too, IF it's said in a nice way according to the mumsnet talk ethos. In the past good humoured dad's comments have bubbled up on threads and often sparked off fresh and interesting discussions and no one feels offended.

I would really hate to think that dads feel excluded from the site. I think dadslib made some brave and thought provoking comments on wobblyknick's thread recently while being generally supportive of her. I didn't agree with all he said, but that's not the point. I wish more dads posted here.

Where are you jbr?

I haven't read any of this, and I get the impression there's a lot of it to read, here on on other threads, so I am just going to type in a quick answer - first thoughts. Then I'm going to catch up and might come back again.

Well, yes, I do think (sometimes) there's a element of sexism here. No person or thread in particular, and I don't think posters are sexist on purpose. It just happens in the heat of the moment. And people often seem to post when they are feeling really down, upset, hormones surging through them, awful experience with dh or dp, etc. Sometimes people come on here to vent, not to be PC. I do think anyone, male or female must make some allowances for this on some threads. Depends on the thread. Just my opinion.

I also think men have a right to butt in and say how it seems from their angle, too, IF it's said in a nice way according to the mumsnet talk ethos. In the past good humoured dad's comments have bubbled up on threads and often sparked off fresh and interesting discussions and no one feels offended.

I would really hate to think that dads feel excluded from the site. I think dadslib made some brave and thought provoking comments on wobblyknick's thread recently while being generally supportive of her. I didn't agree with all he said, but that's not the point. I wish more dads posted here.

Where are you jbr?

I haven't read any of this, and I get the impression there's a lot of it to read, here on on other threads, so I am just going to type in a quick answer - first thoughts. Then I'm going to catch up and might come back again.

Well, yes, I do think (sometimes) there's a element of sexism here. No person or thread in particular, and I don't think posters are sexist on purpose. It just happens in the heat of the moment. And people often seem to post when they are feeling really down, upset, hormones surging through them, awful experience with dh or dp, etc. Sometimes people come on here to vent, not to be PC. I do think anyone, male or female must make some allowances for this on some threads. Depends on the thread. Just my opinion.

I also think men have a right to butt in and say how it seems from their angle, too, IF it's said in a nice way according to the mumsnet talk ethos. In the past good humoured dad's comments have bubbled up on threads and often sparked off fresh and interesting discussions and no one feels offended.

I would really hate to think that dads feel excluded from the site. I think dadslib made some brave and thought provoking comments on wobblyknick's thread recently while being generally supportive of her. I didn't agree with all he said, but that's not the point. I wish more dads posted here.

sorry for 3x post - having computer problems!

I'm sexist... Mumsnet is sexist, but more importantly... MEN ARE SEXIST TOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

So what?

Must say that I'm totally astounded at the cheek of Tom on Mum2boys thread!

Painting a loverly picture of themselves here recently, I does fink.

Ho hum...

Some great posts here. And a fantastic idea for a thread.

I think Mumsnet probably is sexist, but not in a deliberate or spiteful way. I consider it a place of retreat, away from dh and the kids (is that Yurt out the back still open?). It's a safe place to rant about domestic troubles, and a sounding board for problems/ideas when you don't want to confide in someone close in real life, for embarrassment, fear of judgement, whatever. And I think that most women feel safest doing that in female company.

And to complain about it being so... well, I might as well write to FHM to complain about the lack of knitting patterns and photos of George Clooney!

Yes.
it's a pity.
I'm guilty too but will try harder in fuure.
FWIW I think Tom, simonhoward, Stuartc and dadslib have all had some shocking nonsense directed at them which would not have been directed sat them had they given themselves neutral ( Ie assumed female) identities.
I have been frankly embarrassed to be associated with some of the female venting towards men and these men in particular which has occurred on this site.
Good to see some are man/ woman enough to apologise

I tried to apologise to Dadslib!

Dinosaur - get back to the Yurt! I only ran out to get more incense sticks!

M2T can I come in ? I'd like to show you my hand knitted shoes and share my bean casserole

Hmm. What to say and how to say it...

I think I am sexist on Mumsnet, if by sexist you mean being less welcoming to men's contributions than women's. Why? Well, part of it is my own personal problem- I'm a misanthrope generally but definitely have more female friends than male ones and part of me expects that I will be slightly more likely to get on with a female than a male. I'm really trying to change this outlook, though- mostly because I want continue to be close to my sons as they grow and also to confirm to them that I think male adults can be great people. I'd like to introduce them to lots of our male friends as they are growing up so that they can see there are many different ways to be a fab man. I feel I'm doing well here- my few male friends are lovely and my boys do also have a wonderful, involved father, which is a good start. I'd like to build on this by hearing more from men on these boards, though.

However, I also love the uniquely female expressions of strength, intelligence, compassion and wit that is a routine part of mumsnet. In a world which is still by and large ruled by men, where gender inequality is still pervasive everywhere- and in the developed West especially after children arrive- I think it is great to remind myself of how many wonderful, talented, fine mothers are out there, just by clicking on an internet forum. I like to feel connected to a network of other women. In a way, then, male posters could interupt my fem-worshipping sessions! However, having said all that, I do try to swallow my prejudices when men post on mumsnet and be welcoming. I would hate men to feel that they were excluded if they want to join in. But, IME, men don't tend to express such qualities- which they undoubtedly have in spades- in quite the same way as women. I don't think it is just gender "discrimination" that makes the forums of fathers direct so much quieter than the mumsnet boards or that leads to female domination of parenting sites generally- many women love to talk about their kids in a way that many men don't and friendships grow from that in a really lovely way- maybe that is partly nurture not nature but it's reality. As I said before, my partner is an excellent, properly involved dad but that doesn't make him want to talk about parenting and family issues in great detail most of the time, with me or anyone else. I love to do just that and mumsnet steps into the breach so that I don't bore my partner to death.

I'm going to be blunt here, though I hope not offensive- I don't consider any of the men I've seen posting on mumsnet to have really achieved joining-in status and I'm also not sure that some of them have done themselves many favours as "representatives" of their gender, though I don't think they should have to be judged on that basis in an ideal world. Because they stand out on mumsnet they are judged on that basis, though, and it's not fair, if only because they are not particularly representative of their gender at all, I believe... Flirty Berty Simon is not to everyone's taste and Dadslib's right wing politics and recent divvyness on the wife swap thread, unfairly butressed by "you hate me 'cos I'm a man" stuff, leaves many cold- I personally think he's an idiot 'cos he posts like an idiot not 'cos he posts like a male idiot. Many will dislike my idiocy too, regardless of the fact that I'm a female idiot. Tom, on the other hand, seems like a lovely person and I'd like to hear more from him but he posts almost exclusively on his own agenda (or should that be agender?) so I don't feel he is a mumsnetter I know well. Don't get me wrong, it's a good agenda IMO and I broadly agree with him but I don't get a real sense of what he's like as a general witterer about town and what his parenting views/preferences are on anything other than dads' rights. And getting to know people in the round from what they post is what I really, really love about mumsnet. Of course, some women post like Tom too (eg: Tiktok on breastfeeding- she's great too! And all the Home Edders who come out of the woodwork every once in a while and post EXCLUSIVELY on the evils of school- I usually but not always find them less great...) and tend to become embroiled in discussions only within their specialist subject area and not across the board as a whole. It's not a crime!

But my real thought is that no man has yet seemed to really want to be a prolific mumsnetter, so we don't really know if mumsnet is sexist and if a man could be welcomed as a member of the network. Are any males out there brave enough and interested enough to test the water?

Could I please take a moment to point out something that I'm amazed no one else has. The message above this thread and every other one reads BY PARENTS FOR PARENTS!! We are parents whether we are male or female, stepmum or step dad, mum to be or dad to be and adoptive mum or adoptive dad. Please let's accept everyone because we do not want our children to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of sex and it does seem to me that at the moment we are reinforcing gender stereotypes and that is not the world that I want my sons and daughter to grow up in.

rant!!!

Then Lilibet, perhaps it should be called "Parentsnet" instead of Mumsnet?

This is just my opinion, but I wouldn't dream of going on to male-oriented site called "Dadsnet" and start throwing my opinions around to all the men. I would feel that such a site was aimed primarily at men for a reason, therefore I would seek out a site that was aimed either at women in particular or at parents in general. I truly don't understand why the very few men who post on here, have actually sought out a site like this and started putting their 2 cents in. I repeat, this is just my opinion and I'm saying that I personally wouldn't seek out a site which has been dedicated to men and/or fathers... I would respect that it was theirs, if you know what I mean..? That it was a place where they could feel free to talk as men without the fear of being judged or taken the wrong way by women. Surely this has been one of the good things about Mumsnet up until recently? I cannot understand why men would choose this site in particular when there are so many other parenting websites available that they could use.

Just my thoughts.

message withdrawn

I visited mumsnet after reading a newspaper article which described it as "for parents". I have a stepson so I was interested.
One of the posters asked for a male opinion, so I obliged.
I keep visiting the site because it is interesting and educational to read about life from women's perspectives.
My immediate work environment is 100% male so I don't hear women's viewpoints there.
Although I have female friends, mostly through DP, I don't see them frequently enough to gain an insight.

I normally only post if I have something to add to a discussion - a male opinion or a factual item.
I hope I've never been impolite even when I've had abuse heaped upon me (remember the circumcision and pornography threads).

This thread is "Is mumsnet sexist?" - I think there are too many different viewpoints to make such a generalisation. It is however a fact that threads or postings which denounce all men as nasty are not normally challenged. In the last couple of days that challenge has been made (by male posters). It is comforting that several female posters have supported that challenge. (Thank you.)

On a side issue - numerous people have commented that they believe some posters are men pretending to be women. I know I'm naïve, but why would they do this? (Please don't tell me that all men are weird.)

Would love to do a longer post. but supposed to be getign ready - sum it up with ' really well said stuart!'

StuartC I assume they might do this in order to avoid the bias that being a man in a mostly female environment involves.
Scummy I agree alot with what you said, particularly the bit about some posters always popping out of the woodwork when a particular topic comes up - perhaps some of the men stand out as doing this. However I am very uncomfortable with the idea of actually naming an individual whom you consider to be an idiot! Could you hand on heart imagine saying "I personally think .... is an idiot " about one of the girls?
Maybe I am just a sensitive soul but if I saw that written about me on mumsnet I would be very hurt.

ps before anyone wants to name me I KNOW I can be an idiot

I really wish there was a similar forum for men with as much active conversations as I would love to hear what was being said.
Likewise I wish there were more men on mumsnet.

Looking to the future, about 50% of the women on here have male children, presumably. If mumsnet can still be accessed from the internet in 10 years time, would you want your sons to read the wide range of views on men as expressed on mumsnet?

My son (9) knows my password already, and this thought stops me posting anti male stuff sometimes.

I agree with scummy's point that men don't seen to want to join in generally on the threads. But I can only think of 6 regular male posters here in the last 3 years, so I think that's too small a sample to draw conclusions from. I do think the reaction (either good or bad) that men get when they post is often out of all proportion to what they are saying. I don't like the fact that men are a novelty here and I think it's a failing on our part that this is the case.

But there are IMO practical reasons too. Lots of women look at mumsnet in the workplace. Men can't do that easily. If they had the site regularly on their screen they risk lots of ribbing from their colleagues and some might even think they were perverts. While at home, if their female partner was not an internet person, or didn't want to get involved in mumsnet, how many would feel a bit unsettled with the idea that their husband was regularly chatting to lots of women? This might be one reason why men don't post or keep their posts factural and on certain topics only.

Taking the 'what are you wearing today' thread as an example, if I didn't know mumsnet, and my dh started to discuss what he was wearing today with lots of women - right down to his underpants I might find it funny - but then again I might not!