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is mumsnet sexist?

122 replies

Tortington · 11/10/2003 16:19

just wondering?

OP posts:
ScummyMummy · 11/10/2003 16:24

Good question, C! Will certainly come back to this later. Looking forward to the debate.

Angeliz · 11/10/2003 16:27

don't want to be the first but here goes..deep breath.........so what if it is? It is called MUMsnet. There are plenty of PARENT sites surely but i thought you could also have a good old moan on mumsnet without being so damn "PC" all the time..............

Angeliz · 11/10/2003 16:36

by the way.i am in a very bad mood today and may regret this tomorrow.must be PMT.

magnum · 11/10/2003 17:02

Why can't we all be nice?? Why doesn't everyone agree that if they haven't got something nice or constructive to post, then don't post anything at all. If we all took our problems out on others then Mumsnet would not be a very pleasant place to be. I personally use this site for relaxation when I get 5 minutes to myself and also for useful advice and to get other parents opinions. Isn't that what its for???

magnum · 11/10/2003 17:03

(I'm quite new, so you can all ignore me if you want!!!)

Angeliz · 11/10/2003 17:11

totally agree magnum but it's also nice to have a moan about dp without being classed as sexist!

doormat · 11/10/2003 17:18

I thought mumsnet was for us mums and dads to swap info, share experiences and tips with raising children.
Also to have a laugh, rant, joke and cry over our perspective partners/and or exes.
And a chance to chat and make/meet new friends.

Yesterday afternoon there was a disturbing feeling on here for the very first time I have been here and that was someones privacy could of been easily threatened.I didnt like it.

Then last night my faith returned as I seen an act of kindness towards someone who needed help and it was lovely to know that there was people who cared here.

Only for this morning for it to be all dashed again by political correctness.Sorry Tom, you seem like a very nice man and my husband is a member of fathers direct, but I think it was a little rude of you to demand a post to be changed

Oakmaiden · 11/10/2003 17:20

I think it can be sometimes - there is a lot of "man bashing" that goes on - mind you some of the people who post here have very good reasons to be "anti men". I think we are far more careful of the feelings of other women (as Tom said, we try not to bash stay at home/working mums, etc) than we are of men.

But then, on the other hand, in a way a lot of it is like gossiping in private with a chum (even though it is not private and we don't know one another). We vent our spleen, so to speak, and have a good old grumble about the things that nark us off. And it is a femo-centric site, so the unsuspecting man is likely to walk into conversations that he might feel uncomfortable about - cos lets face it, women can be bitches sometimes.

Is this a good or bad thing? Well, it is good that we have somewhere that we can say the things we want to say. But I do think people should be a bit more careful sometimes - there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the male half of the human race, and generalising about groups of people is always not such a great thing to do. I don't think it is such an issue that it is "MUMSnet" because in honesty motherhood is kind of a role you fulfil, not a physical description - the issues of parenting are the same whatever genitalia you have been gifted with. And lets face it, there are other "parent" websites, but they are nothing like as good as Mumsnet, are they?

I could do without reading all the threads with bad feeling on. They aren't very helpful to anyone, and just make people feel bad.

SoupDragon · 11/10/2003 17:20

It's no more sexist than any other gathering of women. We've all "coped" well with SimonHoward complaining about his wife haven't we? It's only Dadslib who seemed to be fond of prodding antsnests with a sharp stick and I think he'd have got the same reaction had he been female and saying similar things.

magnum · 11/10/2003 17:22

Well said, Oakmaiden!!!

Tom · 11/10/2003 17:23

It can be a place where women feel safe to share their frustrations with the men in their lives. I don't have any problems with this.

Sometimes, this can spill over into generalised comments about men, and women who have a problem with men in general can feel safe to express those views - and it can become, at times, a very hostile place for men. When this happens, it's fairly predictable that men will react - I certainly do - after all, women react when there's hostility towards women on other sites, and understandably so.

On the other hand, over the years I've posted here, many other posters have commented that they appreciate a man's perspective.

It is very similar to some parent/toddler groups, and often groups of mums outside schools - where I (and other dads) have often experienced hostility, as we're seen as disrupting what for some people is a woman's space that is very often used to talk about relationships, and criticism of individual men is a part of this.

The irony of all this is that the criticisms of men tend to focus on men being inadequate or inconsiderate as parents, but there is a dynamic among women that actively discourages men from being more involved as parents. One thing, for example, that would help men be more competent as parents would be if men felt comfortable on the mumsnet board.

I have always been assured by the people who run the site that it is open to all, despite the name - some women here clearly think that this is a women only space, but unless there's been a policy change, my understanding is that this is mistaken. To be honest, it'd be pretty much impossible to avoid having men on the site, as it's open to the world via the net. As a public site, whatever is posted is visible to the world, and while it may seem like an intimate club at times, it's perhaps wise to remember that anyone can read what is read.

Like I said on another thread - I run a website for dads, and women are more than welcome there.

Finally, I'd like to apologise to Mum2boy - I am like a bear with a sore head at the moment. I won't go into why, because it's very easy to identify who I am and for things to come back to me irl, but your generalisation about men epitomised the hostility men can experience here and I saw it when I felt my wife was being very inconsiderate to me. So you pressed all my buttons and I reacted. Reposting it was an attempt to create a space where your issue was discussed, as it became pretty clear that my post had hijacked the thread, and I tried to make a helpful comment, but that clearly irritated you further. But others have interpreted that as arrogrant on my part... it wasn't meant like that - it was an attempt to separate the issues - meant well, but perhaps mistaken.

Oakmaiden · 11/10/2003 17:24

In honesty, I kind of feel that Dadslib does jump into threads where everyone is happily discusing something with an opposing view, and then cries discrimination when people disagree with him. There was a washable nappy thread, as i recall....

Tom · 11/10/2003 17:28

I don't think I was being politically correct by the way. I think I was just upset by what was written.

Imagine someone posted a thread called "Why are all women bitches?" and then it turned out to be about their wife...
...And you saw that on a morning when your husband was being a total git to you.....

Anyway... time to make supper now...

doormat · 11/10/2003 17:31

Tom If anyone did a thread with "why are all women bitches" I would laugh because we can all be bitchy at times like men and women can be inconsiderate at times

Angeliz · 11/10/2003 17:31

Tom it was me who called you arrogant and i really apologize.i am like a bear with a sore head too today.(have flu.so does dd) after reading you explanation i see i was wrong. Also i do like a moan about dp sometimes but i don't mind dads coming on here and have took my frustrations today out on here!.sorry all! one of those days..........

whymummy · 11/10/2003 17:32

tom i think you are welcome on mumsnet is just you kind of turned up at the worst possible time,because people feel hurt towards dadslib and i don't blame them,he's given other male posters a bad name,for you is just bad timing,don't stop posting

ks · 11/10/2003 18:04

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Tom · 11/10/2003 18:09

How do you know who is a man and who is a woman on here? Some of you should try posting as a man and see if it's different (not all at once though, we'll know!)

Any by sexist, I would take that to mean that you not only treat men and women differently (everyone does that), but you value men less than you value women.

doormat · 11/10/2003 18:11

Tom I value people for who they are not what lurks crutch wise.

ks · 11/10/2003 18:25

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lilibetsdp · 11/10/2003 18:26

I don't think mumsnet is sexist. But as the majority of post-ers are women the general view is bound to (sometimes) seem biased. And I think to some men that could be viewed as sexism.

I haven't read all the threads over the last few days but from what I have seen its a real shame if the general atmosphere has been soured. My experience of mumsnet is that it is a very supportive and friendly and helpful place - and that there is a great deal of trust and honesty on here. And long may that continue.

Ks - interesting view. Curious as to the background to your opinions. It does seem a very sweeping statement to say you feel sorry for a whole gender.

lilibetsdp · 11/10/2003 18:29

ks - posts crossed there. I promise my intentions are not 'combative' in the slightest. just curious.

wobblyknicks · 11/10/2003 18:32

Surely it all depends on what the obvious meaning is. If Mum2boy had just been starting a thread 'picking on' men for no reason at all it would have looked a tad unfair. But it was obvious from her post that the title was only a quick generalisation (who here always gives their threads the most appropriate title?) and her real problem was with her man, not all men in general.

If any man wants to realise that women have the same sort of vunerable feelings from time to time, just go and hang around the breast & bottle feeding board for a while. As most people will remember, there have been some VERY heated debates in the past supporting one or the other which caused some people to feel like they were being got at. But this isn't the case at all, we're just a group of people discussing things like any group meeting in real-life would. This isn't supposed to be a political-style debate where you have to watch what you say extremely carefully otherwise you'll get accused of god-knows-what. Yes, you have to be mindful of other people's feelings but everyone generalises at times or gets in a mood and says things that shouldn't be taken quite the way they're written.

If you can't stand the heat, get in one the the 'Chat' pubs - I can't remember them ever getting too stressed!

ks · 11/10/2003 18:35

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Tom · 11/10/2003 18:39

I'm not sure the issue is whether mumsnet is sexist - after all, it's just a load of code on a server! We're not even discussing sexism, which is bound up in power relationships (and we have very few real life relationships on the board, so it's difficult to say that this is happening here.

The issue is more to do with stereotyping, generalising and whether people on the board are be more hostile to men than to women. I know it can be hostile to anyone - and usually, any hostillity is based on a tension between people's views. But ks's post raises an interesting point - your "caution" about men's posts... does this (not necessarily in you, but in general) lead to hostililty? Who knows?