Class

[Boe]

Just wondered what made people a certain class - I was described as middle class the other day and not sure if I agree.

There are a few mentions n Northerners thread about her parents coming to stay and I can not for the life of me figure out what makes one middle class or working class - I go to work so IMO I am working class - Is this right????

Bloss that is so true of Australia, what I can remember anyway.You have put me in the mood to make lamingtons.

bloss, I'm just thinking about your question. Is some class discrimimation self imposed? If you had the confidence to fit in, you just would?

My first reaction. Confindence means you just be yourself, no matter what company you are in, yes? If you take this definition, I think chances are you'd be liked by any class of person (as long as your real self isn't awful) but being liked is far different to being accepted as 'one of us'.

CAM, I think you're spot on about class being to do with values.

Oldeimum - agree with your eloquent message that people here and in real life use the word class to mean different things, so you can wish for equality of opportunity for while seeing a class system exists.

Accents are funny things, too. When I first came to London from Cambridge, my accent was very correct and everyone I met, employers too, assumed I came from a good background. 20 years in London must have softened my accent. I never get those comments now.

Hi FlorenceUk,
Really sorry if I offended with the mung bean thing- you're absolutely right, I didn't think about mung beans and Chinese or other cultures than my own at all. I was trying to be very tongue in cheek so they weren't meant to be definitive markers as such, just silly examples. I was actually thinking back to my own childhood- there was this sprouting bean kit that my mum bought and embraced very enthusiatically as a family leisure activity for a short time... she was very into these kit type activities- we made candles, plaster of paris models, grew crystals etc etc and the mung beans seemed to fit in to all that. That's why I was being thoughtlessly flippant- I was trying to send up my own white middle class culture, I guess.

I'd like to hear more about race and class, actually. I totally agree with Oldiemum that class is still a meaningful concept because of inequality of opportunity. And actually I would tentatively suggest that it's still the KEY to explaining inequality of opportunity in this country (UK). I do totally believe that racism also leads to extreme inequality of opportunity here but I think that a lot of people lump the two inequalities together. It's my estimate that middle class black and asian British people don't have the same inequalities of opportunity as poorer black and asian British people, even though they have to confront much of the same disgusting racism and certainly the fact of being not white in a white centric culture. Any thoughts?

I would like to know more about race and class. Is there a country where class does not exist or is it prevalent around the world in all societies.
Why I am asking is that someone mentioned France and Russia and their revolutions to abolish the class system but does class still exist in these countries?
Is it having a monarchy that determines whether a class structure exists?
Or was their revolutions a waste of time?
Sorry but that point has just got me thinking.

scummy, your post has reminded me of the dissertation I wrote for my degree my years ago.
I was studying immigration to the USA in the 19th and early 20th century.
I contrasted the experience of Jewish and Italian immigrants and how easliy they were assimilated into American culture. Just the second and third generations.

In a nutshell, Jewish families tended to rise in class by the second or third generation. Italian families tended to remain proudly working class.
Some of this was to do with the culture and traditions they bought to America, so I read (don't shoot me anyone) ie in Jewish culture study and learning were revered, so parents were ambitious for their children to rise in the professions and that paved the way for entry to universities and the professions and so into the American middle class. For many Italians, close ties with family and extended family continued to be their guiding force. Working together and living together made them less outward-looking and meant they were assimilated into the American middle class more slowly. Though that's not to say they weren't very successful on their own terms.

Cultural helped to determined how the early Jew and Italian immigrants used opportunites to change thier lives in America. Both races succeeded in 'progressing' but in different ways.

So, bringing this back to your point, sort of, if different races want different futures for their children, then I think the issue of equality of opportunity(which I totally agree on) and race and class gets more confused than ever.

hi doormat i can only speak for spain,we have a monarchy,theres not posh accents,you can be a baroness with a southern accent; theres obviously snobs like in every country and have their little way of speaking,but no,theres no posh accent so no one would be treated differently or given a job just because they sound posh even the king doesnt sound posh to me

Another really interesting point doormat ... I have a very hazy memory of studying the French Revolution at school and this is how I saw it ... The whole point of the French revolution was to take the power from the nobility (who were stinking rich) and hand power to the people (who were desperately poor).... unfortunately after executing the royal family and most of the nobles (those who didn't manage to escape) a new hierarchy emerged led by dictators ... first Robespierre and his reign of Terror ... and then later Napoleon, (who was a commoner) ... rose to power and crowned himself Emperor ... and the French came full circle ... I believe that they went back to a monarchy for some years before becoming a republic ....
So ... what was the point of the revolution? As so what was the point of the Russian revolution? After executing their Royal family and 'forcing' everyone to be equal for 80 years the Soviet Regime broke down and the Iron Curtain collapsed ... I went to St Petersburg in 1990 and learned an awful lot about how 'equality' can suck a nation dry. No school had a name ... just a number ... all children wore the same uniform in the whole city.... Everyone lived in the same drab high rises .... there was very little individuality anywhere ... just sad, desperately poor people. Ok, so a dustman was paid the same as a doctor ... but no one could strive for a better life as there was nothing to strive for ... no matter how hard you worked you got the same as the bloke next door ... and not very much at that ...
The only people who got rewards for their efforts were the people who brought glory to their country internationally ... namely sports people (gymasts, athletes etc) ... and politicians .... and even then when they retired they retired to drab high rises ... with just enough to live on.
And what is happening now? Russia has turned back to Capitalism ... with a vengeance ... What was the point of their revolution?
I won't go into it but what about China?
Society is an forever fluid ... forever changing ... It is impossible to make everyone the same .... History has proved that .... to make everyone the same would mean we take the richness out of the world we live in .... IMHO ....
Which brings me to the line from Animal Farm ... All pigs are created equal ... but some are more equal than others ....

'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand is a v interesting novel with much to say about this angle of class.

It's a story about what happens if you take away incentives to do better or work harder. What happens in the book is that all the acheiving people disappear, and the ones who are left flounder. I won't say more as it will spoil a good read for anyone who is interested.

Thanx for that info ghosty. It is such an interesting topic and to be honest, never thought much about it until this thread.I did study sociology but only got taught the blue collar/ white collar/ skilled etc etc about the class system, not this diverse range of peoples opinions. This debate has so many unanswered questions.
Hi Whymummy, TBH I think that unfortunately there are snobs in every type of class. I dont like snobbery as we are all in the same boat trying to eke out a living and providing our best for our families, no matter how rich or poor we are.

Absolutely love this thread only just caught up. But in the end I think class distinction comes down to when you have dinner! At lunch time or tea time!

Oh, this is a good thread!

Expatkat, re your boss - what class does she think she is then? Interesting too that she uses 'middle class' pejoratively, as do many people. No, I don't think she can elect to opt out of the class system because, like it or not, others are interested in her class and it does affect her life in the ways Oldiemum and others describe. Telebubby, where my dad came from 'council' was considered posh! I'm not particularly impressed by either expression (middle class or council) being used as insult though.

Shaw was interested in what made a person the class they were too - in Pygmalion didn't he conclude that it was a very delicate combination of accent, money, background and upbringing and the absence or presence of any one of these could completely change the way you were perceived or accepted by a certain class? Ks, I also find it fascinating, especially where a family change class within a couple of generations - when does the crossover happen and when does the family become truly their 'new' class? You're right about the upper classes in the UK being famously dim - maybe it's because inherited money doesn't have to work very hard and sometimes women for example, aren't even educated - it's not worth it (Julie Birchill on Diana is interesting on the subject of how the upper and upper middle treat their women) since they're for marriage and breeding.

I like your tests too scummy. I thought I was failing them since I didn't think I'd read Noel Streatfield but then you posted the book titles and lo and behold, I have! What about how you eat your peas as another indicator? And whether you say loo or toilet or lavatory?

www, re the upper classes being reputedly dim - inbreeding?

maybe you don't know, but English class is a subject studied a lot in Italy.
A famous Italian writer, Beppe Severgnini even wrote a book about it (Inglesi) which gives Italian an idea of the British class divide, and more importantly of the fondness of these class distinctions among every cultural strata.

It does a very interesting reading, even though I am not sure it's all true.

He says that in England everybody knows his/her place, the class even dictates the food and clothes one chooses (i.e. he says that fish and chips is working class, salmon and boiled potatoes is middleclass, and upper class will have what's on the menu for that day of the week...)
The other interesting thing he says is that while generally in Europe there is mobility in class (seen as a type of job and generally speaking money) from a generation to another always trying to go upwards, in England people are quite to follow in their parents steps and are quite of their original class.

Not saying I agree with this, being a foreigner this is the point of view I first read and I am still trying to understand if it's all true while living here...

Has anyone else come across the terrifying Jilly Cooper book "Class"? I'd say she was upper-middle but desperate to be upper, anyway it deals with all this in a very funny way (if you take it tongue-in-cheek) and goes into the divisions within classes, which are much more complicated. The knots that middle-class people tie themselves in over whether they are lower/middle/upper-middle are described perfectly.

So, I suspect that an upper-class person would never correct anyone's English, unlike the teacher who castigated me roundly for asking to go to the "toilet" when I was 7. All very U and non-U.

As someone who makes a real effort to tone down a quite "stuck-up" accent (which reflects my education but not my family background) I'm only too aware that Shaw's comment about an Englishman only having to open his mouth to make another Englishman despise him, is still true.

Scummy, neither of my parents had a degree until my mum took one when I was a teenager. I read my Noel Streatfield in a council house! My grandparents were true working class. Manual labourers, my grandad on my dad's side grew up in a one room space in a mews - when mews were just for horses. They had a fire in the middle and a hole in the middle of the ceiling for the smoke to escape through. My other grandparents brought up my mum and my uncle in a tenement in the East End until bombed out of it and put into a luxurious council flat in East Ham. However, my mum went to a grammar school, became passionate about ballet and classical music and became a dancer and then a teacher. My dad also went to a grammar school, as did my dh. Love 'em or loathe them, they were the key way out of the working class for them and gave them aspirations beyond their background. I was the first person in my family to go to university, but now regard myself as middle - cos I'm not working class (and I would think of myself as a patronising fool for saying I was) and I'm certainly not upper!

marialuisa, where should you ask to go?

What you call your meals is supposedly a class indicator.
My swanky boarding school called them breakfast, lunch and supper. Dinner is an evening meal out and tea is scones and sandwiches.
Anything else is non-U!!!!
It's all rid- idle-idle-ickle-ickle-ickle-ous.
I call supper dinner - probably because I'm shacked up with a waiter...

A class indicator (subject to age) that occurred to me today - do you drop litter? (Values again.)

daisylawn, we have lunch at our house, but we also have tea - not dinner or supper - or if anyone does have supper it's cereal, because we had tea too early and they're hungry again!

(School meals are interesting - it's a school dinner or a packed lunch - never a school lunch or a packed dinner!)

www - I eat my peas with honey
I've done it all my life
It makes the peas taste funny
But it keeps them on the knife.

(I thenk you.)

marialuisa, you are right that someone who corrects another's speech or behaviour lacks class in the worst way!

It's the lavatory or the loo, even bog is better than toilet. Still can't bring myself to say serviette or pardon, vocab is a big giveaway!

Oh and eating in the street is OK for working and upper class people but not for the middle classes, suspect that one is out of date now.

As the daughter of a Welsh-Welsh mum and a Spanish/Italian father I do think that everywhere has its subtle ways of dividing people. So, when speaking Spanish I would never overdo the "th" sound in ciudad (uneducated according to my grandad) and when speaking Welsh i'm very careful not to sound "Cardiff Welsh"(stuck up) despite the fact that I lived there for ages.

It's all tripe but I took a Psychology degree by mistake, really should have done Sociology.

It's the lavatory or the loo, even bog is better than toilet. Still can't bring myself to say serviette or pardon, vocab is a big giveaway!

Oh and eating in the street is OK for working and upper class people but not for the middle classes, suspect that one is out of date now.

As the daughter of a Welsh-Welsh mum and a Spanish/Italian father I do think that everywhere has its subtle ways of dividing people. So, when speaking Spanish I would never overdo the "th" sound in ciudad (uneducated according to my grandad) and when speaking Welsh i'm very careful not to sound "Cardiff Welsh"(stuck up) despite the fact that I lived there for ages.

It's all tripe but I took a Psychology degree by mistake, really should have done Sociology.

As I always suspected- Noel Streatfield TURNS people middle class even if they weren't before they read it! Just look at the evidence here- all of you who read them in council houses are now frightfully posh mumsnetters! Anyone on here desperately clinging to working class credentials better burn their daughters' Streatfield books.

p.s. I did read Caldicott Place, PPH. Was v odd, I agree, not least because their ill Dad stayed in the shed and in the end they adopted all the kids who came visiting...

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

You know you can really tell someones class by how much they discuss what class everyone else is.

The snobbery is that, if you are worried about what class you (or more likely anyone else) are in then you either think you are better than you really are or want to feel better about yourself thus put others down.

That whole remark about council estate people for instance was so off. Okay so there are the scroungers but not everyone on a council estate should be marked. I got it from the other end, in a village with a large percentage of council houses my parents owned theirs so therefore I was labelled a snob. We weren't rich but my parents worked hard for what we had.

Such labels are ridiculous and just show the person making them for what they are.

So, Teletubby, you are a snob, of the worst category but you are not upper anything. A mercedes proves nothing, inside you are shallow and that shows, believe me it shows dreadfully. I really hope you were tongue in cheek because if not I would suggest you get help.

And I would have put this better but it is late, it is hot and this weather is giving me a Spanish temperament!

Well said Paula.