Class

[Boe]

Just wondered what made people a certain class - I was described as middle class the other day and not sure if I agree.

There are a few mentions n Northerners thread about her parents coming to stay and I can not for the life of me figure out what makes one middle class or working class - I go to work so IMO I am working class - Is this right????

Bloss, I'd love to think the same is true over here, but I'm not totally convinced it is. However, I don't have your experience of going to a 'posh' school and not having the same wealthy family background as my peers. It sounds like you and your family held the same values as eveyone else and that meant you were accepted on all levels. I'm sure that holding the same values is a major key to being accepted as 'one of us' here in the UK too.

I went to a grammar school in Cambridge, and had a middle class upbringing. I remember making friends with a girl from a wealthy family who went to a good public school. She used to visit my house with her parents blessing. Then she invited me to her house to a party to meet her other friends. Her parents intervened and told her she couldn't invite me. After this we drifted away from each other. At the time I definitely felt that our friendship was being discouraged because I was not quite 'suitable'. Not a huge incident in my life, admittedly.

Here's another story from my childhood in Cambridge that I find more saddening. In my teens I used to belong to a church youth club. The leader visited the local grammar schools drum up interest in it. I asumed that he visited the secondary and comprehensive schools as well but when I joined I realised this was not so. I had a best friend at the comprehensive who wanted to come along with me. I asked the leader if this was possible and he said he didn't think non-grammar pupils would find it to their liking. Our youth group studied things in depth, it wasn't a happy clappy type of place and so he refused my request. At the time I felt this person was one of the biggest snobs I have ever encountered. Ironically, my friend went on to become a committed christian.

Must say that one of the things I love most about the internet is that you can't prejudge people by appearance or accent - you get to know them without prejudice.

tigermoth, those 2 experiences of yours are very sad. I wonder if that sort of thing still happens?

Paula71 - Yes my comment about the Mercedes was tongue in cheek, i don't consider myself to be of any class in particular. I openly admitted that my husband and i are snobs with regards to where we shop, clothes we wear etc but that doesn't mean to say we think of ourselves as upperclass or better than anyone else. I think class is dictated by your personality and your morals not by material possessions or what you or your parents did/do for jobs.

i tend to find self described middle class people obsessed with class and explaining what class they are, citing examples etc.

obviously communism in practice doesnt seem to work however that is not to say that there should not be a more equal (re)distribution of wealth.

i think ones accent, table manners, what to call the toilet and what to call supper and dinner and when to break or slice a bread roll all serve as social dividers.

i agree about the confidence comment but somehow dont want to (strange) becuase if no one gave a toss about how you ate your peas then it wouldnt matter - but as a certain people do, and as i am aware they do- then i get invited to tea - which might be supper - and shit myself over whether i am eating my peas correctly - bursting for the toilet but not wanting to ask becuase i dont know what its called - and not eating bread because i dont know whether to butter it. it happened to me recently, the mumsnet meet at the Grand in Brighton - i was desperatley watching my fellow netters incase my table manners werent up to scratch i mean cheesus H. chrisp - at 31 years old i know how to eat - i hated myself - but felt so inferior to the waiter!

on friday night i was on the piss - like you do - in london with some workmates, when my boss ( lefty socialist) in some conversation i am too pissed to remember, refered to me as middle class.
i was mortified - i really was! i told him to take the comment back - as i wouldnt accept that kind of slight from a southerner. Meaning as a Northerner i consider myself to be superior.

i find my accent helps people to prejudge me as having bathed in a tin bath in front of a real coal fire, wearing clogs and eating lard.

the most important thing to remember is that people are not afforded the same opportunities because of money and class and that is very sad.

so teletubby. you may have worked very hard tog et where you are and to have a mercedes - how pissed off should you be that some people Dont work at all and get the same thing handed to them. surley teletubby this cannot be fair as you have worked to hard.

i also think that the pyramid doesnt help - with working/ underclass at the bottom to U.class at the top. Upper meaning higher? better than? there is an inference there certainly. and the aspirations of people to become part of a "higher" class. thats quite sad.

and whats with the litter one? do the middleclasses drop their litter and expect others to pick it up? i didnt understand this reference.

the most telling thing about some middle and upper classes are that they have no idea how the majority or people live. they have no comprehension of how desperately poor some people still are, prefering to stick to the "Benefit Claiming Scum" prevailing ideology toted by the daily mail

I agree that there are still alot of poor people in this country just managing to get through until the next payday. If fewer people were abusing the welfare state of which there is significant evidence that there are then this would allow not only a much better standard of living for those who are genuinely poor but would also open up opportunites for people to be able to make the changes themselves through education etc etc

No, custardo, they don't drop it, they take it home or put it in a bin because they don't like the mess it makes.

Paula71 - By the way, you are right if i had made that comment about 'council estates' that would have sounded extremely shallow and self righteous, the point i was making, as i have said before, had nothing to do with whether you lived on a council estate but your general attitude to life. It's more about whether you get up and go or whether you expect everything in life to come to you, which it invariably doesn't. My husbands parents lived on a council estate but he and his brothers were brought up on the basis that life isn't fair so therefore don't expect it to be and that you make your own way in this world.

Teletubby - the idea that vast numbers of people are abusing the welfare state and thereby taking money away from people who really deserve it is not true.

The big frauds (landlords claiming for non-existant tenants etc) have more or less been stamped on along with most of the small frauds. Yes, there are still people who claim the dole despite having a job (almost always a low paid one), and there are still people who claim the sick despite being perfectly capable of work, but not nearly as many as you seem to think.

All unemployment benefit claimants have to go through a certain amount of rigmarole to prove they are looking for work; sick claimants have to be seen by a doctor every now and again.

In fact the anti-fraud checks in the system already arguably cost more than they save. The true reason we spend so much on the welfare state is much more mundane: there are far more pensioners than there used to be.

Benefit fraudsters are not the problem: that would be an unequal tax system.

Plus, of course, there are plenty of people who are perfectly hard-working etc. but remain poor.

And others who become disillusioned over time.

Yes you're right and clearly well briefed on the current benefit system and are perfectly correct in your statement about the increase in the number of pensions. I am constantly baffled by the Governments lack of honesty on this issue. Whilst clearly an unpopular view we as a country need immigrants of a working age to head off a pension catastrophy in the future. We need a large influx of educated and skilled labour that are able to contribute to the tax and pension system for the future but his message seems to have been translated into theiving assylum seekers a view which is not helped by the lack of strategic direction in relation into the Governments assylum policy. The issue of fraudulent claims has been highlighted in a number of Home Office documents namely in reports from the Departments of Education and others. You are right in your previous assertion that these claims are not isolated to the unemployed but include employers, landlords et al.

teletuby are you not pissed off that there are people who by virtue of being born into the right family got a mercedes for their 18th birthday - they shop at the same designer stores you do.

whereas you worked so damned hard to get what you have today?

this is not fair.

its actually very hard to dodge work and unjustly claim benefits now - most people used to claim long term sick, but thats too tight to do now. its not as easy as you think. its not done by as many people as you think - and i would rather my taxes go there than councillors and Mp's taking trips to foreign countries to look at water supplies or doing the TWIN TOWN thing.

how about county councillors getting money for the meetings they attend - this isnt work! i will bend over and kiss my neighbours anus on my head - if going to these meetings is considered work - those middle class nonces taking my tax money for that nonsence - is worse - worse than someone falsley claiming so they can bloody well subsist.

the amount of middle class rich people who are screwing this country could fill its own thread - but lets consentrate on those without money - becuase they have no influence to get you more money or power - or take it from you. and dont give me that everyone has a vote bullcrap neither - becuase when your running from people you owe money too becuase you bought your kid a xmas pressie this year - you dO NOT register to bloody well vote.
and then there are those who have been screwed by the officials and the middle classes so many times they cant be arsed becuase they see it as bollocks - becuase they truly cannot equate it with real life - becuase the highlight of the week is a 4 pack of asda cheap lager on a friday night - and some people would begrudge them that - taking it away in a second as they try to discover new ways of screwing poor people whilst siting in a £200PH restaurant in feckin london charging it to the taxpayer - then swanning off in their flashy cars - tax payer paid - to attend some meeting on how to learn from the dutch on a cleaner water supply - everone laughing at the tax payer as they book their £200 per night hotels - travel first class to get there then have a holiday on the taxpayer

honestly corruption is rife - but lets persecute those who want an extra £50 a week ...A WEEK boys and girls. and the amount of people who get away with doing this are minimal.

whatabout those rich people whop own their own business and employ their wives/brothers/sisters - whole family - for tax breaks

how about the boss of a ompany i know who had a £9K kitchen fitted and "charged" it to "entertainment expenses"
accountancy fraud is rife. its how the rich get seemingly legitimalety richer - its how Govt can appease those with money as they can get it back through the back door.

its not fraudulent benefit claimants that make this country poorer. imagine how much extra money we would have as a country if everyone paid their dues rightly and honestly.
then..
we would have to assume the Govt would spend it on something worthwhile and not a war on erm... lets see who could we stick our noses in on this week..liberia?

ive just received an email talking about an interview between ophra w. and tommy hillfiger ophra asked him "is it true that you have said that if youd known that,blacks,hispanics and asians were buying your clothes you would have used cheaper materials because your clothes were design only for white people of the upper class?
his answer was yes and she asked him to leave the show
has anyone heard of this before?is it true???ive never bought anything from him and i dont intend to now!!!

Custardo - You ought to stand for primeminister - i'd vote for you!

Not sure most southerners would, teletubby.

Don't think she is joking, unfortunately...

think custardo is putting forward a very poor argument. well, lots of poor arguments. more of a rant, really. my particular favourite is
"teletuby are you not pissed off that there are people who by virtue of being born into the right family got a mercedes for their 18th birthday - they shop at the same designer stores you do.

whereas you worked so damned hard to get what you have today?

this is not fair."

Why do you assume that the people who bought the car for their child's 18th birthday didn't work damned hard for the money? In fact I would go so far as to say that anyone who did buy a Merc for their child's 18th birthday probably worked DAMN hard for their money, and the only reason they did it was because they wanted to give their child everything and more that they didn't have growing up.

Why do you object to people making money and doing well for themselves Custardo? Especially given your background that you shared with us - searching for money down the back of the sofa to buy something to eat - presumeably you would be delighted to make sufficient money to make sure that your children would never have to be in that position themselves?

Anyway, the upper/uppermiddle classes would give their children a 5 - 10 year old Polo on the assumption that they would crash it in the first couple of years.....

I really should bow out of this before I start (OK, continue) ranting.

PPH, I think Custardo was more concerned with the children, not the parents. Yes, it is every parent's right to work hard for their kids, but that still doesn't make it fair that those kids have such a good start in life compared to others.

Because the class system is all about "keeping it in the family". I see your point about parents wanting to make their kids lives easier, but is it fair that some kids get a better education because they so happened to have hardworking/lucky great grand parents? And is it fair that some kids have the world at their feet just because some ancestor of theirs killed someone else and became King??

I don't object to people making money for themsleves or their kids. I just object to the idea that they somehow "deserve" everything they have because they / their parents "worked hard" for it. As I say, some people work hard all their lives for very little. Also, as Custardo says, some people do bugger-all for a lot of money/kudos. That's the problem.

that is such bollocks, really!

"Yes, it is every parent's right to work hard for their kids, but that still doesn't make it fair that those kids have such a good start in life compared to others."
So why don't we focus on improving the lot/circumstances/educational opportunities of those children who DON'T have a good start in life instead of moaning ineffectually about how "unfair" it is that other children DO have a good start in life. And blaming it on that old chestnut, "class".
Honestly, only in Britain do you get huge swathes of the population wanting to drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator. No wonder we have one of the highest child poverty levels in Europe.

lucy, pph didn't say the kids deserve it - just why shouldn't the parents spend the money on them if they have it?

I agree with that, but with the proviso that, when the kids grow up, what if the parents can't/won't continue to help them out - what do they do then? Can they cope alone?

In any case, if custardo's kids happen to end up doing extremely well financially and buy cars for her grandchildren on their 18ths, is she going to stop them?

The class thing isn't just about money. In fact money as such is almost irrelevant.

Didn't mean that's where the focus should be, I was just sticking up for Custardo.

Yes we need to focus on education etc. But we also need a fairer taxation system, particularly if we want to pay for that better education system.

The child poverty rates are misleading, as child poverty is defined differently in each country. We probably do have high rates of it though but that would be because we don't have either:
a) the redistributive tax system of France or Germany
b) the family culture that you get in Italy and Spain: children grow up relatively rich in those countries because if the parents are poor, then the rest of the family pays.

But Janh, the class thing is about money, or at least it is over generations. Other class markers come from education (especially private education) and the people you mix with - most people mix with people in a similar income bracket.

But anyway. Did you read about the court case in Italy where a family was forced to continue to provide bed and board for their 30-something son? They'd thrown him out (for being lazy or something) and he took them to court.

Sorry, Lucy, I disagree - I think class envy is about money though!

Yes, you would be right there.

I must get my old Sociology textbooks out.

tax, education, government policies, social exclusion etc - very happy to talk about all of these re child poverty etc. Not prepared to accept a rant about "class" being the cause of all of these problems, but prepared to accept you didn't mean that!

Interesting thing about money is it tends to dissipate over the generations (with a relatively few obvious mega-landowning exceptions). A lot of families that people recognise as mega-rich are really fairly newly rich - this generation or last. Many of the real true blue upper classes haven't got two pennies to rub together, whether you believe that or not...

I don't think that talking about class and what class you are in in ANY WAY setting yourself above others. I said I thought it would be patronising and stupid to call myself working class, because I know what that is, and living in a house you own,having a degree and a job you can do while keeping your nails clean isn't it. I also strongly disagree that if you acknowledge that a class system exists you are tacitly approving of it. I know that men and women belong to different genders, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in equality. I am just recognising the truth of what exists right now, people are of different classes - and it is interesting to me how fluid and blurred the lines are between them, how some middle class people (eg Tony Parsons) pretend to be working class when they are not any more, while some upper class people (Guy Ritchie) pretend to be working class when they most definitely aren't.