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Original poster

Class

359 replies

Boe · 07/08/2003 17:49

Just wondered what made people a certain class - I was described as middle class the other day and not sure if I agree.

There are a few mentions n Northerners thread about her parents coming to stay and I can not for the life of me figure out what makes one middle class or working class - I go to work so IMO I am working class - Is this right????

OP posts:
janh · 08/08/2003 19:41

It's used very specifically in market research, but also colloquially and sociologically - not for class exactly but social status - might not be what you mean:

A - professional (solicitors, doctors etc)
B - management
C1 - white collar
C2 - blue collar
D - unskilled
E - unwaged

and what bugged me when I did market research was that it referred to the man of the house if there was one!!!

janh · 08/08/2003 19:44

Thanks for that link, bk - a blast from the past - jbr hasn't been around for ages! Where did she go?

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 20:12

As I suggested in a much earlier posting, we use the word class in different ways in different contexts. It seems to me that some of the disagreements in this discussion stem from our talking across one another about, on the one hand, the concept of class as an indicator of social status (people looking up or down at one another) and the concept of class as an indicator of access to resources. So there is no contradiction in someone saying that they hate the idea of class, when they mean that they want to treat all people equally, but that they recognise that class matters, because your position in the social structure affects your life chances. This is my position, in fact.

ScummyMummy · 08/08/2003 21:10

Mine too, Oldiemum- well put.

motherinferior · 08/08/2003 21:12

Scummy, I've just passed ALL your test except for the Archers. The shame. Actually I gave up years ago on claiming to be anything but irredeemably upperish-middle, which was terribly embarrassing when all my lefty friends could show off about their working class credentials.

I have to say I think breastfeeding is a real class marker, unfortunately.

bossykate · 08/08/2003 21:59

what is upperish-middle, mi?

bossykate · 08/08/2003 22:00

don't know why i keep feeling drawn to this as it is one of my long-held beliefs that only people who are very socially insecure really worry about class distinctions!

donnie · 08/08/2003 22:05

anyone read Orwell's 'keep the aspidistra flying'? what a great book that is, all about a lower middle class man who launches his own personal war against class and money....I must have read it 20 times or more.I can recommend it to anyone whi has a brain. And not a single mention of f***g Mercedes at all !!!!! now that's what I call class.......

janh · 08/08/2003 22:08

Is that the one about George Bowler - Bowling - ????

princesspeahead · 08/08/2003 22:12

Oh Lord, won't you buy me
a Mercedez Benz
My friends all drive Porsches
I must make amends
Worked hard all my lifetime
No time for my friends
Oh Lord, won't you buy me
a Mercedes Benz

good old Janis

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 22:13

Agree on how good 'Keep the Aspidistra' flying is. Anything by Orwell is a good antidote to muddled thinking - especially his essay 'Politics and the English Language'.

bossykate · 08/08/2003 22:19

well, it is a while since i have read any orwell... but isn't one of the key points of KTAF that the experiment crumbles under social pressure? oldiemum, sorry, must ask you to expand on your assertion that "anything by orwell is a good antidote to muddled thinking". iirc, orwell was riven by doubts about the conflict between his own relatively affluent upbringing and his socialist ideals. not to mention the conflicts apparent in "1984". can we really approve of the poverty tourism displayed in "The Road to Wigan Pier" or "Down and Out in Paris and London"?

bossykate · 08/08/2003 22:20

Haven't read "Politics and the English Language", so perhaps my questions are answered there.

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 22:21

Couldn't find the quote before. Here it is:

The words 'democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice', have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different ... Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class, totalitarian, science, progressive, reactionary, bourgeois, equality.

Orwell, Politics and the English Language, 1946.

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 22:24

Agree that some of his journalism was a bit dodgy. I was thinking of the essays - eg 'a hanging' - and Homage to Catalonia.

bossykate · 08/08/2003 22:24

interesting, oldiemum, but that sounds like an analysis of "spin" rather than an analysis of democracy, class or any of the other terms mentioned. thanks for taking the trouble to quote it

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 22:29

It was a comment on some of the various definitions of class people have offered, or use implicitly. Especially when they argue that class doesn't exist.

bossykate · 08/08/2003 22:38

oh dear, i am not going up for the "pedant of the evening" award , but i don't think it argues that. it merely says

"Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: class [my emphasis] etc etc"

i interpret that to mean that people use definitions of class, among other things, for their own ends, including, but not limited to, when they argue that class doesn't exist. the converse is that when people argue it does exist, they use that argument for their own ends also.

anyway, i think this is a digression, albeit an interesting one, from the main thrust of the comments here, so will say goodnight and thanks to you oldiemum for a bit of a brain workout!

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 22:39

Way down below, I did offer some definitions of class, by the way.

bossykate · 08/08/2003 22:41

if you are referring to your post of 8.12pm then i agree with you, oldiemum, just not on the literary criticism! good night, i mean it this time...

OldieMum · 08/08/2003 22:49

Bossykate -sorry, but I can't resist one more comment. The argument that class doesn't exist does not have equal empirical status with the argument that it does, because one is empirically true and the other is not. However difficult it may be to come up with an agreed definition of class, systematic social inequalities exist and they affect people's life chances profoundly. Earlier on, I gave some data on A-level performance, for illustration. One could find similar data for health, longevity, measures of psychological stress and quality of housing. So Orwell's comment is relevant because it encourages us to ask why people might redefine class in a way which makes it trivial or simply a matter of feelings towards other people.

I enjoyed the workout, too. I'm on maternity leave and my main recreation seems to be doing the washing-up these days!

florenceuk · 08/08/2003 23:19

Just to say I agree with Oldiemum's post of 8.12pm as well! As a NZ'er can't help but notice how important class is to the Brits. Not saying it doesn't exist in NZ (and tends to be more along ethnic lines) but it is so much more "in your face" here.

PS This was a long way down this thread but don't forget some of these markers have an ethnic dimension as well - my mum sprouted mung beans by the bucketload but then, she's Chinese...

Ghosty · 09/08/2003 00:11

Floreneuk ... really interested in your post ....
As a Brit living in NZ I find social distinctions (not 'class' so much as you say but ethnic distinctions) REALLY in your face here ... much more so than in the UK ...
I feel really quite uncomfortable here at times as the kiwis I know really do go into the "Don't live there ... full of Maoris and Islanders you know" and don't seem to see anything wrong in looking down their noses at certain areas and people ...
The State school system here is really elitist IMHO ... it was quite a shock to me when I moved here to find that there is no difference in sending your child to the 'best' state school in Auckland or sending your child to private school ... you HAVE to be loaded to do either as the house prices in certain school zones are phenomenal ...
It is one of the only things I don't like about NZ ... everyone does not get the same opportunities ... AT ALL .... all depends on how rich you are ....

bloss · 09/08/2003 07:09

Message withdrawn

florenceuk · 09/08/2003 09:53

Ghosty, funnily enough I've had the same reaction to the way people refer to the Welsh, and also to Asians here. Also suspect if you did a study of class mobility then NZ would come out ahead of the UK apart from Polynesians/Maoris - but still probably far ahead of Australia at least in terms of how the indigenous people are treated. I don't know the figures for black people here, but would be surprised if social mobility was significantly better than for Maori in NZ.

Also I grew up in a small town in NZ and went to an incredibly crap primary/secondary school, but it didn't really make that much difference to where I ended up in life - the drive of the middle classes here to send your kids to the "right" school just didn't seem to be such a big concern. But Auckland may be different (if you haven't noticed, there is also an Auckland vs rest of NZ divide as well!) Overall I'd say where you were born, where you went to school and if you went to uni matters less in NZ for overall standard of living and where you end up - my reason for saying class matters less over there than here. But I've been away from NZ for over five years now - and things may have changed.