Nursery not allowing full time hours

[Pasqual]

Hello,

I'm looking to see if anyone else has been in this situation and has any advice to offer.

My 3.5 year old started his full time nursery place in August. Prior to this he attended a private nursery 1 day and week and was there 8am-5pm.

Long story short is that I have been asking for assistance from our health visitor since he was 2. He doesn't communicate verbally with us, doesn't make eye contact, doesn't play with other children (prefers to play alone) and has very high energy all the time. We are currently working with SLT.

When he started his new nursery I met with them prior and explained my concerns and asked for help. They provided me with techniques they use in the nursery and we had implemented these at home prior to him starting as he responds very well to routine.

He initially attended for an hour and a half a day we accepted this as we understood he needed time to settle in. We asked 4 weeks later about increasing his time and they stated they didn't have the capacity. I questioned this and they said they had him on a 1 to 1 ratio and they couldn't facilitate it.

I requested a meeting back in November and they agreed to keep him until after lunch time, we now pick him up at 12:30. They also admitted that he wasn't 1 to 1 but that he does require someone to keep an eye as he struggles with sharing if another child approaches him to play.

I am due to have a major operation and will not be able to drive for at least 12 weeks. Due to shifts, I do the majority of drop offs as my husband also works full time and pick ups are split between grandparents. I have asked the nursery to increase at least 2 of his days to full time (9-3) to assist and they are refusing stating he gets too tired and they don't have the staff to facilitate. My daughter's school is in the same building and when I'm out of action, we will be asking grandparents to do 6 runs to and from the school and one set doesn't drive.

He is tired at the end of the day when we pick him up but he doesn't sleep well at night. My hopes is that if he gets settled into a routine his sleep might even out.

Am I wrong for pushing this? Are they allowed to refuse this?
He is entitled to his hours, there are other children on a 1 to 1 ratio who get to stay all day.
If we tried it and it really wasn't working, I could accept that but they haven't even given him a chance to see how he gets on.

Is the nursery a private business? I suspect that if they feel they can't cope then there's not a lot you can do except look for another nursery.

It's a council ran, pre-school nursery.

If they don't have the staff then they don't have the staff. Your child is entitled to their funded hours but that doesn't mean a nursery has to facilitate them.

Agree with @hellojelly . Unfortunately if they don’t have the staff to facilitate and keep him safe when he’s there, they won’t increase his hours.

If it's a preschool with a teacher then they might only have a 1:13 ratio.
The children with 1:1 will probably have specific funding.

What is the behaviour specifically that the nursery is struggling with? Keeping him safe? Keeping other children safe?

I would ask for a meeting with the SENCO and ask what kind of support plan they have for him at the moment, what interventions are they trying. Is there an inclusion officer at the council supporting them? Are they going to apply for funding or an ECHP for him? Where are they at with evidence gathering for that?

So what they've highlighted is that if he's playing and another child approaches him to share a toy he has been known to lash out or throw items. SLT have also confirmed that developmentally he is behind in his communication and understanding, so he finds it difficult joining in some of the activities the other kids are doing.

There haven't been any incidents where we have had to sign a form or anything due to something he has done, but we have had to sign a form where he was bitten by another child who broke the skin.

I have requested further meetings and asked if they would support in doing a referral for an additional support need assessment and I've been told that they don't think that would be beneficial at the moment as he's so young. I've been told the waiting list for an assessment is 2 years, so that would be after he starts school.

I am at an absolute loss with what to do - on one hand we're being told they can't facilitate and he needs extra support then on the other hand we're being told that he's not.

There are few things going on there

You told them before hand about your ds difficulties. They said it was all ok and are now back-pedalling because actually he does have all the issues you mentioned. I think it’s crap on their side.

However, if they can’t cope with him in preschool, then I’d take that as a clear sign your dc will extra support. At preschool and at school. You might want to go down the route if a SENCO, diagnosis and EHPC.
Id also like to know how the nursery he was at coped - did they have someone 1-1, issues with him sharing etc… as they preschool is reporting? If not, why? I think it’s an essential question because it will tell you what sort if adaptations your dc needs and whether the ire school is actually happy to make that extra step or if they are dragging their feet.

Btw, you’ll have to push very hard to get those assessments.
I doubt all children have to wait two years for anything to be put in place. And clearly you can assess a 3.5yo - just see the fact the SALT has already done so!
Dont wait for the preschool. Ig go through the HV first. And ask the preschool for their policies re SEN.

Is that preschool attached to the primary school he is likely to go to?

He doesn't need a diagnosis for an EHCP.

I would be polite but very firm with them.
Write down some questions to take to the meeting, take notes and follow everything up in an email afterwards.
Ask what support they have put in so far - and if it has worked.
Ask which situations he needs 1:1 support in.
Ask what support or advice they've had from the local authority and inclusion officer.
Ask to see whatever plans they have written for him at the moment.
I would formally request that they make an autism referral and start to apply for an EHCP.

I'd also ask what hours they are claiming for - if they are claiming for 30 hours he should be attending 30 hours.

If they say he doesn't need 1:1, a support plan or and EHCP at the moment, then I would expect him to be able to attend full time.

Yeah, so I contacted his previous nursery prior to the last meeting we had and asked if they had anything to highlight and they were perplexed. They said in their setting he very much done things at his own pace and they supported him with that because if they tried to force him to join in group activities he didn't cope and would have a melt down. They said that he would eventually come and join in when he was ready, usually after observing from the sidelines first to see what was happening. They gave me this in writing and I took it to the meeting and gave a copy to the head teacher. The response was that the old setting was smaller than theirs.

Thanks for your advice. I think it's time to ask for another meeting and try to get this ironed out and a plan in place.

Lots of children have a 1:1 for different reasons and needs so it’s impossible to compare. Yes, they can and must refuse if they cannot accommodate him.

Lots of high needs children don’t go to mainstream schools or do full days either so consider the extra pressure you are trying to place on your child. I have two sen children so understand the need for respite but you also have to look at how your child’s needs and wellbeing fits into it as well.

You’re unlikely to get an EHCP in place before starting school due to the timescales and fact most are declined and need to be appealed, which is worth doing but a very lengthy process. Do have a meeting with the nursery and try to work with them to see what they can offer, and potentially look elsewhere.

There is an organisation called Not Fine in School which will help you with getting him the support he needs. Also get registered with SENDIASS who will help you.

The health visitor doesn't even bother to reply to my emails or phone calls - she's been nothing short of useless. She has been invited to the meetings at the nursery but has never bothered to turn up.

The plan is that he'll go to that school as his sister goes there already. He's not due to start school until August 2025, so we have time to put things in place...I think

Unfortunately August 2025 is no time at all when it comes to seeking a diagnosis and obtaining an EHCP.

If your HV isn’t responsible what about going to their manager? Your GP might be able to submit a referral for assessment (it varies from area to area) but remember you also want it in place for when it comes to choosing the right school (and the same one as a sibling, might not be the right school).

Our council has something called early years inclusion funding, yours might have similar, if you don't mind doing their job for them you can look up options on your LA'S local offer website to see what's available, then insist the nursery apply.

My DS got that when he was in nursery, and it was much quicker and easier to apply for then the EHCP he eventually in reception.

Hi OP, my DD is 3 and non-verbal, most likely has ASD and she started at a private nursery a couple of months ago. Initially 2 mornings a week then 2 days and now 3 days.

The SENCO has been really helpful from day 1. She has an enhanced ratio of 1:4 as opposed to 1:8. There are support plans in place as well as a risk assessment and de-escalation plan. In the New Year, either nursery or myself will start the EHCP application process.

They’ve applied for early years inclusion funding and have an inclusion officer in the council they can ask for support.

If the nursery say they can’t meet your son’s needs, I’m not sure what options you have. Eg. if my daughter needed a 1:1 (or if her EHCP said she needed one), I’m not sure her current nursery could accommodate that (due to recruitment struggles) and so maybe I would have to look at special nurseries.

In terms of managing the full day, it’s hard when we ‘need’ them to manage the full day but to be honest, my daughter struggles with the full day (8 hours) as she also doesn’t always sleep well and can sometimes be up
in the middle of the night for a few hours. So in the New Year, I’m looking to put in a request at work to reduce my hours so I can reduce her time at nursery.

In terms of a diagnosis, I’ve been trying to get help with that pathway since her 2 year review in January this year and next month the NHS SLT will try to refer her to the ASD assessment list- it will be a 18-24 month wait to be seen. Maybe try asking your GP for a referral to the paediatrician?

Even if they can’t increase your son’s hours, the nursery don’t sound very helpful/supportive.

I agree, even though I work part-time and my DD is only in nursery 3 days, even that feels like too much for her. Even on days she has an afternoon nap there, she still really struggles in the last two hours of the day. Plus she has an early start and usually not enough sleep at night, so it just feels like she’s being set up to fail.

Thanks so much to everyone for taking time to reply - alot to think about and questions to be asked. I'm also going to minute any meetings we have going forward.

I only want what's best for him and if he does need extra support then we fully accept that and are willing to do whatever we need to do. My husband has a midweek day off and we offered to keep him home that day if 1 or 2 days could be increased and that was shot down without explanation.

I guess my feelings at the moment are stemming from the fact the only reason they can give us for reduced hours is that he gets tired, doesn't really speak and struggles to share but there is no evidence at all to support longer days wouldn't work. The head teacher said back in October that she's reluctant to do any referrals and she wants time to work with him as there has been improvements since he started in August. My concerns are that they're doing what suits them and not having my son's overall best interests at heart.

This parenting thing is much more difficult than what anyone else tells you about isn't it 😖

I know your daughter’s school is in the same building and you eventually want your son to go there, but I think you should look at other nurseries as this doesn’t sound like the best fit for your son, especially after your latest update and the headteacher’s reluctance for referrals.

I wasn’t sure if school nurseries would be as supportive as private nurseries so that’s what made me go for private and to be honest, I don’t think mainstream school will be the best choice for my DD so am looking into special schools for September 2025.

Even if they can’t meet your son’s needs, they should be working with you and not shooting you down without explanation.

My husband has a midweek day off and we offered to keep him home that day if 1 or 2 days could be increased and that was shot down without explanation.

I don’t know your child but mine struggle with longer days over more shorter days and that seems to be fairly normal for sen children at school as many start slightly later and finish anywhere from lunchtime to half an hour or so before the end of day.

Imagine your child’s ability to cope for the day is a Coca Cola bottle. It can be shaken repeatedly throughout the day and will eventually explode. The longer the day is, the more shaken that bottle is and the greater the explosion when it happens. Reduce the day and maybe it will just be fizzing but able to get through.

The head wants more time to work with him but isn't facilitating extra time in the setting? His needs at nursery are significant enough, in their view, to mean that he can't cope with the same session times as others and he is receiving high levels of supervision whilst there - which is a clear indication that his sen may be causing him to need provision that is 'different from or additional to' that of his peers. This is essentially the criteria that should be considered when applying for an EHCP according to the SEND Code of Practice.

In the new year I would ask to meet with the senco - you should be having regular meetings/contact with someone if your child is on the nursery sen register anyway - which I presume he is if they are/have been providing 1-1 from their own funding. Sendiass can offer good advice as already mentioned, plus there may be relevant parent support groups in your area.

I know how difficult it can now be to gain funding and use this for 1-1 support - many localities are no longer allowing funding to be used in this way directly. Though they can use it for other things that will make his day easier.
However, the nursery will potentially receive funding if an EHCP is successfully applied for. The provision is usually entirely funded by the local authority as there is no notional amount as in schools.

I would advise reading up on EHCP's , particularly the process in your area. The process to assess and write an EHCP should take 20 weeks, but is nationally taking a lot longer at the moment. An EHCP in place early would absolutely be beneficial in many ways - ensuring that he gets the provision that he needs. These can be issued from any age up until 25, so there isn't a specified minimum and we currently have 10 awarded or in progress in my early years setting.

The nursery probably can justify this, there is a huge problem with staffing in the early years across the board at the moment and this may be having an impact. But you are not wrong to push it. We should do all that we can in the early years - in all years! - to ensure that children have opportunities for equal access.

Your idea to give it a try and assess how it's going is a good one. And you sound incredibly reasonable and willing to work with the nursery to find something that works best for your son.

Sorry if I'm a bit ranty - it's a subject I'm passionate about. None of us get it right all of the time - I definitely don't! But we absolutely should be doing our best.

If the nursery is part of a state school have a read of the statutory suspension and exclusion guidance because it applies to school nurseries as well. The nursery should not be excluding DS like they are. Request an EHCNA yourself. On their website, IPSEA has a model letter you can use. Ask to meet with the headteacher. Early Years Inclusion Funding exists in all LAs (although might be called something different) so ask if they have applied for that. Follow up the meeting with an email so you have a paper trail as evidence.

You can apply for an EHCP yourself, all you have to prove is that he MIGHT have an additional need (no diagnosis necessary), AND that he MIGHT need support in school/nursery over and above what is usually provided.
Go on the IPSEA website and there is a letter you can edit with your own details/situation and you send that to your local authority.
If they agree that he MIGHT have an additional need AND that he MIGHT need extra support, then they will send forms to the nursery to fill in (and they will have a deadline to do so), they will send in a speech and language therapist and an educational psychologist plus any other relevant professionals. They will all put in their reports and the authority will decide if he needs an EHCP. From the day they get your letter that whole process should take 20’weeks.
An EHCP will last him until he’s 25 if still needed and it will provide extra money to school and legally binding provision that they have to provide.
Dont let school tell you he’s too young, I have 3 children with EHCPs in my nursery, and they each have their own member of staff.

I would look into applying for an ehcp myself.
It almost certainly will be refused to start with, don't be put off- appeal and go to tribunal if needed.
You will need to push for it.
An ASC assessment will take a while. Waiting lists are insane but a diagnosis is not needed for an ehcp.

It sounds like it is needed and he will have lots more options with one in place.

SENDIAS can be really helpful.

This sorry