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Original poster

Nursery not allowing full time hours

116 replies

Pasqual · 20/12/2023 14:50

Hello,

I'm looking to see if anyone else has been in this situation and has any advice to offer.

My 3.5 year old started his full time nursery place in August. Prior to this he attended a private nursery 1 day and week and was there 8am-5pm.

Long story short is that I have been asking for assistance from our health visitor since he was 2. He doesn't communicate verbally with us, doesn't make eye contact, doesn't play with other children (prefers to play alone) and has very high energy all the time. We are currently working with SLT.

When he started his new nursery I met with them prior and explained my concerns and asked for help. They provided me with techniques they use in the nursery and we had implemented these at home prior to him starting as he responds very well to routine.

He initially attended for an hour and a half a day we accepted this as we understood he needed time to settle in. We asked 4 weeks later about increasing his time and they stated they didn't have the capacity. I questioned this and they said they had him on a 1 to 1 ratio and they couldn't facilitate it.

I requested a meeting back in November and they agreed to keep him until after lunch time, we now pick him up at 12:30. They also admitted that he wasn't 1 to 1 but that he does require someone to keep an eye as he struggles with sharing if another child approaches him to play.

I am due to have a major operation and will not be able to drive for at least 12 weeks. Due to shifts, I do the majority of drop offs as my husband also works full time and pick ups are split between grandparents. I have asked the nursery to increase at least 2 of his days to full time (9-3) to assist and they are refusing stating he gets too tired and they don't have the staff to facilitate. My daughter's school is in the same building and when I'm out of action, we will be asking grandparents to do 6 runs to and from the school and one set doesn't drive.

He is tired at the end of the day when we pick him up but he doesn't sleep well at night. My hopes is that if he gets settled into a routine his sleep might even out.

Am I wrong for pushing this? Are they allowed to refuse this?
He is entitled to his hours, there are other children on a 1 to 1 ratio who get to stay all day.
If we tried it and it really wasn't working, I could accept that but they haven't even given him a chance to see how he gets on.

OP posts:
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kimchio · 20/12/2023 20:20

Also I'd think about if there's an alternative to asking their grandparents to do 6 trips

WonderLife · 20/12/2023 20:38

The school can't have it both ways - either his additional needs are so significant they can't safely have him do his full nursery entitlement OR his needs are so low they can manage it within nursery and he doesn't need any further referrals or support.

I'd ask the Head which it is.

Original poster
Pasqual · 20/12/2023 21:46

Thanks for the helpful comments. There's some really good advice and it is really appreciated.

I've been doing some research after putting the kids to bed and it's seems Scotland doesn't use EHCPs and there isn't an equivalent system here. I'll explore other options.

I've emailed the headteacher and asked for a meeting after Christmas break to discuss everything face to face, I have asked if SALT and the health visitor can be invited along to make it a partnership meeting to try get everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. Hopefully that will be the start of getting some answers and getting him any support he needs/ruling out additional support needs - whichever it may be

OP posts:
KeepGoingThomas · 20/12/2023 21:59

The nearest equivalent in Scotland is a CSP, but they aren’t the same as EHCPs. Instead of looking at IPSEA, have a look at Enquire.

SoIRejoined · 20/12/2023 22:12

Given your concerns about his development I think you need to ask yourself whether full-time nursery is actually in his best interests. I have two children with SEN who go to mainstream school but they would not have coped with full time nursery, they can't go to after school club either.

Tumbleweed101 · 23/12/2023 09:34

Full time nursery is hard for SEN children (it can be hard for typically developing children too). Many we have had doing 9-3 or longer really struggle after lunch time.

If it is a school nursery with a teacher the ratio may well be 1:13 so in a busy class room this may why they are struggling to manage difficult behaviours. Your child won’t be the only one with behaviours needing close managing and children who are unpredictable with hitting or throwing things can be difficult to support and keep others safe.

If they can’t safely support him are there smaller nurseries locally that might be on a 1:8 ratio in their preschool room?

Loz2323 · 30/12/2023 21:11

Your HV can actually put in a referral his or herself you don't have to wait for the pre school to do it and the bit about your child being too young to do a referral is a load of rubbish, we take in 2yr olds and we have done referrals at this age

RKP123 · 30/12/2023 21:12

My child is 3.5 years old and has had there hours reduced. I'm struggling with this really. HV says they're entitled to their full hours but the nursery are saying they don't want to make it a negative experience. It's hard because I really need them to be a nursery for lots of reasons but also to get use to the hours etc for when school starts.
I don't the answer really, I'm struggling to get there hours increased again so I've kind of just accepted it.

Doodles83 · 30/12/2023 21:15

This sounds exactly like my son at that age. I didn’t know about EHCPs then and struggled for ages. Then when I brought up EHCP the school fobbed me off and said let’s wait. I applied in the end and he started a new school, age 7, in September with an EHCP and is thriving. You can apply for it yourself. It can take a long time to get so if you do it now then you don’t have the wait further down the line. There are plenty of groups on Facebook that can help and support you through the process. My son doesn’t have any diagnosis but is under SLT. Good luck.

Ktr88 · 30/12/2023 21:18

Hi, you need to contact your local authority SEN department and request an assessment for an Education and health care plan. It’s a lengthy process but will ensure your son gets the support he needs. Also, if he needs 1:1 this also provides funding towards it for the nursery. Once an EHCP is in place they have to follow the plan. In my experience don’t ask nursery to make the referral, do it yourself directly. Good luck x

mezlou84 · 30/12/2023 21:29

They need to get someone like wisendss or sendiass in to assess his needs so they can apply for the funding needed to get him the 1-1. My children are ASD. My daughter was in nursery for 2 days before she was pulled from afternoons and put into mornings. They have more time for her and her needs on a morning. She was in nursery 4 days before they got wisendss in and they assessed her the 2nd week of being in nursery giving them tips and advice on how to help her integrate into nursery. Everything was followed up and a week later they'd applied for extra funding for her and given me forms to fill in to be put on autism pathway. They need to be more pro active in getting the help needed however with my eldest he wasn't diagnosed until he was 10 because nursery and primary weren't interested and wasn't til we moved schools and the new school was pro active that we got anywhere. They won't take your child for longer if they can't keep them and all the other children safe. I'm dreading my 3rd going as he isn't anywhere near as aware as my other 2 and he isn't safe (headbangs, will throw himself literally backwards from standing, can't communicate etc) so will need 1-1 luckily the nursery he is down for is applying for everything before he goes as they know what he's like from my daughter attending. He won't be able to go without 1-1 as he isn't safe and needs someone all the time in case he decides he isn't happy. I wouldn't want him there without it isn't fair on the other children (there is 45 atm in my daughter's nursery as it's nursery and reception combined with 2 teachers and 2 assistants) they can't learn or be safe with one of the teachers constantly with him even more so if it was all day.

Ruth2013 · 30/12/2023 21:30

My friend’s son got his before he left nursery. They applied in the January and had EHCP by the time they broke up for summer. Very quick process

Ruth2013 · 30/12/2023 21:32

My friend’s son got his EHCP in about 6 months. Nursery teacher started process in the January and had it by the time the6 finished for summer

PurplePansy05 · 30/12/2023 21:39

Where in the UK are you based, OP? I'm guessing from the responses on here you're in England? The preschool nursery systems and entitlements are very different elsewhere in the UK.

PurplePansy05 · 30/12/2023 21:40

Ah sorry, just seen your last post, if you're in Scotland a lot of the posts wouldn't necessarily apply.

8misskitty8 · 30/12/2023 22:04

3.5 is not too young to start the referral and assessment process. If he is already being seen by speech and language then that will be used as part of his referral and assessment.

If his needs are so great that they won’t have him full time then he needs a 1:1 and referral process started so the staff are contradicting themselves.
Particularly since they knew before he started he was already attending speech and language.

In Scotland he is entitled to the 30 hours free funded hours. However you can split this between a council and a private setting.

BungleandGeorge · 30/12/2023 22:33

Can you get him back into his previous nursery? It sounds like the current one is a pre-school? I think nurseries tend to be a lot more child led and less regimented and can be better for many children. You could maybe have him in both settings part of the week?

MintyfreshSW · 30/12/2023 22:34

H OP

def apply for an EHCP and ask the local inclusion officer from the LA to come and observe DS at the nursery - the nursery can get inclusion funding.

unfortunately in my experience pre schools are much less helpful and flexible as a private nursery - could you consider switching him to one until he starts school?

Frazzledfraggle07 · 30/12/2023 22:49

I would start by very nicely asking for their complaints procedure, don't get drawn into a conversation about the complaints just ask how to raise it formally on the basis of discrimination. Contact SENDIAS at your local council they should be able to attend meetings at nursery with you to give support and advice. If you have a local parent carer forum contact them too. I would also go to the GP to discuss your concerns and lack of support from HV, if nothing else it means that your concerns are noted on medical records early on. Make it clear to the nursery you feel his needs aren't being met and you want a SEN support plan to be put in place, it's unlikely an EHCP will be considered if SEN support in the setting hasn't been exhausted first. Unfortunately you have to fight for it all and become that mum that's a pain so they get things done when you contact. Good luck x x

user1492757084 · 30/12/2023 22:50

In the meantime you could ask if a grandparent could spend a few hours a week with you at your place and you should setup a safe play area inside a huge play pen..
A contained area with safe toys and where you can plop DS while you are cooking, showering, or waiting for someone to help you.
If your son is difficult and you are ill sometimes he will be too hard for you to manage. You can only do your best to keep him safe until he calms down.

Is foster care available to give you some respite for a couple of months after your operation? Your child might be happier playing 1:1 at someone's home.

Red0 · 30/12/2023 23:10

You may need to reconsider the setting he is in and look to send him to a nursery who can facilitate a 1-2-1 ratio for him. If his current nursery feel he needs 1-2-1 to stop him attacking other children but they don’t have the staff for that, I think it’s only fair for all involved that you consider a different setting for him. I hope you can sort something out OP, it must all be very stressful for you.

EmmyA87 · 30/12/2023 23:24

I do an hour a day 1:1 with a non verbal reception aged child. Hes only at school until just before lunch and then goes home. He doesn’t have the funding for a 1:1 yet so it means staff are being pulled from different classes to ensure he has someone with him at all times.
If the school are saying they can’t facilitate having him there because of staffing issues then that’s your reason. Believe me schools don’t want to have to reduce timetables for pupils but sometimes it has to be done. The child I work with wouldn’t cope being at school all day, your son was at nursery ONE day a week. Five days a week is completely different. If for any reason he became physical or distressed it’s quite difficult to manage, along with keeping 20 or so other children safe. See how he gets on with a reduced timetable for the time being and revisit it in a term or two?

lauram31 · 30/12/2023 23:28

Hey , just sending a big hug your way … been there done it got the t shirt unfortunately .

the honest answer to all this is BUDGET .

im a mum of a 15 year old who is now in his last year of school and has been statemented “ with full 1:1 support since 8 years old when formal assessment took place at 7 . ( we are in wales and the system is changing and statements are being replaced with EHCP ) these are either school based or authority based depending on wether has complex and medical need .

have you requested a sogs asessment ? If not send an email to the health visitor team ( if you don’t have one call and ask for an email adress )

from now on in everything needs to be done via email , verbal word is not worth of anything when speaking to anyone when it boils down to your child and additional needs , budget is why they don’t like to do anything , any diagnosis , need etc all comes down to money , the ALN budget is being cut years in the majority or authority’s .

you can contact your local LEA also again find out the email , find out the hours your son is funded for and bring to their attention the situation but be careful what information you give away from now on in 😉

has a speech and language referral been put in ?

a sogs assessment will be the first step if this identifies that you son is not hitting the levelled guidelines that he should be the next step would be a referral to your local CAMHS ( ours is iscan ) child adolescent mental health service .

you will be asked to complete a parents form and when it comes to this you need to give as much information and supporting evidence as possible as to why as his parent you have concerns so start documenting things your seeing daily to keep them there for when you need that information to hand . The more information provided the better chance you have at your child being accepted for formal asessment ( ADOS asessment ) this information is taken to panel and currently in our area there are over 70 per cent of children being declined mostly due to funding and budget but also stretched resources , we have only 1 medical professional that carries this out in our borough with a waiting list in the thousands!

if your child has additional needs remember you are their voice and the only person that will ever fight for the education they so rightly deserve equitable to their peers.

you can do this and will do it !

my son is a success story of everything I’ve put in place for him and is currently on track to obtain A-C grades in his GCSEs ( already completed 5 and got A,B,C,C,D )

children with autism and many other additional needs are unique in their own ways and very intelligent children , they just need the extra support and tools in place to support them in achieving their potential .

As a mum of a child with ALN I can honestly say that life can be so challenging and hard for so many many years but it’s all worth it in the end especially when you can see that every fight you’ve had over the years has given your child the best start in life you can !

good luck mumma xx

UsingChangeofName · 30/12/2023 23:35

re the Health visitor She has been invited to the meetings at the nursery but has never bothered to turn up.

You lost my sympathy at this point.
What you mean is, due to horrendous cut backs across all public services, she doesn't have the capacity to 'turn up'.