Nursery not allowing full time hours

[Pasqual]

Hello,

I'm looking to see if anyone else has been in this situation and has any advice to offer.

My 3.5 year old started his full time nursery place in August. Prior to this he attended a private nursery 1 day and week and was there 8am-5pm.

Long story short is that I have been asking for assistance from our health visitor since he was 2. He doesn't communicate verbally with us, doesn't make eye contact, doesn't play with other children (prefers to play alone) and has very high energy all the time. We are currently working with SLT.

When he started his new nursery I met with them prior and explained my concerns and asked for help. They provided me with techniques they use in the nursery and we had implemented these at home prior to him starting as he responds very well to routine.

He initially attended for an hour and a half a day we accepted this as we understood he needed time to settle in. We asked 4 weeks later about increasing his time and they stated they didn't have the capacity. I questioned this and they said they had him on a 1 to 1 ratio and they couldn't facilitate it.

I requested a meeting back in November and they agreed to keep him until after lunch time, we now pick him up at 12:30. They also admitted that he wasn't 1 to 1 but that he does require someone to keep an eye as he struggles with sharing if another child approaches him to play.

I am due to have a major operation and will not be able to drive for at least 12 weeks. Due to shifts, I do the majority of drop offs as my husband also works full time and pick ups are split between grandparents. I have asked the nursery to increase at least 2 of his days to full time (9-3) to assist and they are refusing stating he gets too tired and they don't have the staff to facilitate. My daughter's school is in the same building and when I'm out of action, we will be asking grandparents to do 6 runs to and from the school and one set doesn't drive.

He is tired at the end of the day when we pick him up but he doesn't sleep well at night. My hopes is that if he gets settled into a routine his sleep might even out.

Am I wrong for pushing this? Are they allowed to refuse this?
He is entitled to his hours, there are other children on a 1 to 1 ratio who get to stay all day.
If we tried it and it really wasn't working, I could accept that but they haven't even given him a chance to see how he gets on.

I just want to add a little bit from the point of view of someone who works in early years. We are incredibly underfunded, under staffed and having to deal with an increasing number of children with additional needs whether it be autism, behavioural issues, communication difficulties, etc. No setting wants to turn parents down or let a child down but if they say they are going to struggle to meet your child’s needs and that he may struggle with extended hours then they may well be being truthful. Much more funding needs to be given to early years care as parents such as yourself are continually battling to get their family’s needs met. I hope you can find a workable solution, you’re entitled to feel frustrated and let down but I just wanted to give the other side of things a bit.

A lot of nurseries as parents of children with additional needs seem to ask for them to collect early. X

Hi!
Sorry just seen you are in Scotland so ignore the first bit! Also assessments may also be different for you.
Firstly are you in the UK? Or did he start nursery at 2 years old? If he was 3 before the end of August 2023 the he should be starting reception in 2024?
Anyways I’m sure you know that. I have a 3.5 year old in a school nursery 5 full days a week. She also goes to their wrap around care on the days I work so she’s there 7am-5pm. Sure she’s tired but needs must 🤷🏼‍♀️.
Having said that I’ve heard other parents ask to increase their hours but they’ve been told no as they are at capacity. If this is the case there really is nothing that can be done.
If other children have a 1:1 they must have a formal assessment/ ehcp in place. A state school wouldn’t be able to provide that without the correct funding.
I do think they are not being very clear with you. Have they at least sent him for speech and language therapy/ assessment? I had speech therapy as a child, id say it’s fairly common. If the reason they can’t have him is due to the need for 1:1 then they need to start the assessment process. It can take ages.
Im a high school teacher and seeing the kids that have fallen through the cracks and got to us without an assessment is heart breaking. Only those with switched on and pushy (in a very good way) parents seem to get it in place early doors.
Try the health visitor again.
Ask your GP about speech and language.
Keep pushing the school for a clear answer and action plan.
Could they start gradually increasing his hours?
What current strategies are they using? How is he responding to them? Are they at least putting together a school plan with the senco?
These are all things you need to ask them.
Think about if this is the school you really want for your son. If he is getting no support now and will need it in the future is he better off elsewhere? Otherwise you could be battling with them for the next 7.5 years.

OP,please PM me if you wish. I went through the mill with useless HV regarding my DS and was fobbed off on all stages.

It is true that the system is very underfunded but dedicated people make a lot of difference when you meet the right one ready to push your case.

I’m in north Scotland

Ask you health visitor to start referrals to paediatrician or the slt to do so.

Does your local authority have a SENIS department do you know? That's what really pushed my son to get exactly what he needs at nursery and she visited and suggested we move him nurseries as there was no way his needs would be met from the present one so we did and everything else kind of fell into place from there.

With or without senis you need to ask them to apply for an ehcp if they don't then do it yourself. If they say yes but local authority refuse to yes to assess you do it again yourself don't let them talk you down 💪

I think it might be worth contacting your local social services. I know the thought sounds scary but they are there to support. There is often early help provisions that don't meet statutory social work intervention but the likes of family workers etc come on board to help advocate for you and your family. Hope you get sorted x

Firstly, 9-3 is not full-time lol.
Secondly, asking grandparents to do 6 runs per day is ALOT.
I understand how annoyed you feel that the nursery agreed to take your child but now can't do so. Did they definitely agree to do 9-3 every day and gradually increase? 1.5 hours a day as a starting point seems wild.
Perhaps the nursery underestimated the support your child would need and have now realised they can't meet his needs with their current staffing level?
You are entitled to your funded hours, but if the current nursery can't provide the hours you need, find another nursery - and quickly, before the funding rules change!

I can't help with your specific query OP but on a general level, I think you need to prepare yourself for a big shock and possible lifestyle change.

You appear to have what will possibly amount to a disabled child.

You also appear to think that if you follow the rules you'll get whatever help your child is officially entitled to, that those in authority will assist you with this, that it will all happen in a suitable and sensible timeframe.

You seem to think that as long as you fill in whatever forms etc and get whatever referrals etc are needed, your child will get sufficient help such that your life can continue on as it is.

Sadly, it's possible that none of this will be true. You're likely to have to fight people and systems every step of the way. It will probably take ages and even if help is funded it doesn't necessarily mean anyone will be available to deliver that help or that the funding won't be removed due to budget cuts. You may not be able to continue working full time/at all and living a normal life due to your child's needs and the insufficient support that is often provided for those with additional needs.

It shouldn't be this way, but life doesn't always work out as it should and forwarned is forearmed. You don't want to be having this realisation one day when you're at the end of your tether mentally after years of battling and having no idea how to make it work. It's better to have it in the back of your mind that it's a possibility and formulate some kind of back up plan, if you can.

Just popped on to say our DC was at a preschool which was adamant she needed to a of extra support, couldn’t do full days etc because of behavior, which was radically different than at home. We tried to work with them for about 8 months, had her assessed behavioral therapist and so on. School said everything was still terrible. Moved her to a new, completely standard program but with actual qualified teachers and all the issues disappeared and new school is politely disbelieving when we explained the old school said she was basically uneducatable in a standard setting because they are not seeing anything odd.

so it could just be inexperienced and overwhelmed staff and/or a high number of other kids with challenging behaviors, which in our experience caused the whole class to spiral, including one child peeing her pants every day because she was afraid to use the loo due to another child hitting her so much!!

Our DC is not behind developmentally either -school was completely wrong. I still get angry when I think about the narrative they pushing!

Ring or email the SEN team at the local council and also ask for an appointment with your health visitor. There is funding available for nurseries to enable children with additional needs to attend.
They will also be able to provide evidence for an EHC needs assessment if you decide to do a parental application.

My husband has a midweek day off and we offered to keep him home that day if 1 or 2 days could be increased and that was shot down without explanation

It may be that there are more staff in the morning than afternoon. They sound like they are either at max capacity or his behaviour is much more demanding than you or they are letting on, and they are struggling to cope with him. They definitely need to explain more though.

Personally I don't think it sounds like the right setting for him. At this young age, he should be able to just potter about playing what he wants to and not have to 'join in' if he doesn't want to. I'm not sure where he needs the 1:1 attention. All children struggle to share. Where I work this 'playing' (it's all learning), even alone, would be considered fine until 3 and even after 3, and especially if verbal development was behind. Different settings work differently. Maybe he needs somewhere more relaxed and more child centric.

@Pasqual

not sure if you’re still reading this but hopefully. Firstly and I’m sure you know this already. It sounds like your DS is autistic. My DS is also 3.5 with an ASD diagnosis and non verbal also, he sounds so similar to your DS. I’m confident that had DH not been a doctor I would still be fighting a GP and HV to get a damn referral, the system is so broken and awful.

DS also can’t do full time at nursery. I had to leave work when he was two and it’s caused nothing but strain. Are they allowed to do it? Yes, essentially. As long as they can justify that they cannot meet his needs in terms of staffing or that they don’t believe it’s in his best interests then yes they can.

once you have a diagnosis, EHCP, blue badge, disability funding…etc it changes a bit because the owness is then on them to meet his needs. As in ‘you have been formally told the needs of this disabled child and now it’s your responsibility to meet them’ I’ve been toying with the idea of reopening the fight over hours with nursery now we have all that stuff in place and accusing them of disability discrimination if they refuse but ultimately, I don’t think DS would actually manage.

The life of an SEN parent is horrid and a lot of it is knowing that you desperately need help and support but very few people/places are actually capable or willing to meet that. Our nursery is a super expensive ofsted outstanding one too so suspect there’s much worse out there.

You need to demand a Peads referral from your GP! Protest in their waiting room if that’s what it takes because without the diagnosis primary school is going to be the biggest shit show ever. For context we’ve already had to apply for ERP / specialist support places for our DS next September over a year in advance so you’ve already missed the deadlines that you have to have diagnosis/EHCP in place even to be considered for.

Im not saying this to scare you, it’s very common but at the same time on paper and in terms of the system you are massively behind and no one will take any responsibility for having blocked you out of it or not helped you once you are through it will all come back to you. One day you’re being told you’re an overzealous over worried mother then the next it’s ’well You’ve missed all the deadlines and you should have had the diagnosis much sooner’

This.

OP you should ask for this to be moved to Scotsnet so that you can get more relevant replies.

Meanwhile get in touch with your MSP to complain and ask for support. MSPs can help expedite and escalate matters.

You need a childminder with SEN expertise- no setting is going to want your business - they will lose money vs. making money - due to the ratio your child requires. Can you keep your x 1 day there and find a childminder for the other days? Obviously all children get free 20 hours, but are you topping that up like most parents do? If so by how many hours?

Nursery and school environments can be very over stimulating for a lot of children, even more so for children with ASD. It’s not the right environment for a lot of children and we are setting them up to fail by expecting them to be able to cope with it. Maybe the nursery can see that he would find longer hours difficult to manage and are reluctant to agree if they know they don’t have the staff and it may set him back. Schools and nurseries generally do their best but have to cater to the majority due to poor funding and sometimes lack of expertise. Even an EHCP isn’t a magic wand as they’re often not fully funded so money has to be found elsewhere. It costs a lot of money to pay a 1:1. I would explore other options for childcare. A childminder possibly? Smaller ratios and more flexible hours?

What about asking them to try 2 full days a week, split up to start with? That way the grandparents don't have the extra pick ups, he can just stay at home the other days. Perhaps if it is successful it can gradually be increased?

He sounds very similar to my DD at that age, 'FT' nursery for her was 3 hours every day (works differently in my part of the UK), I sorely regret making her go for that year. They couldn't really manage her either (in her case, I don't think the staff were well enough trained to manage SEN). So I do also advise reflecting on whether forcing this is actually the right thing for DS.

Hi,

unfortunately when DS was younger he was not allowed to attend any nursery. We trialed a lot and they all said they couldn’t cope without him having a 1:1.
Awful watching him fall more and more socially behind but nothing I could do.
when he attended school nursery they began the EHCP process but for the first few months I had to come in and 1:1.

He also was only allowed to be part time even when starting reception (This can be forced on you before they turn 5).

I found this was really hard in my own life and massively impacted my own mental health. I couldn’t join the other mums and sit and have a coffee whilst the children played as my son needed 1:1. I couldn't work anymore as no childcare setting would accept so I had to give up my career. It was a very lonely place for a few years.

Our district has now created a SEN nursery (too late for me). They still can only attend 3 hours a day 3 times a week. I would highly recommend looking into what your local area can offer.
check if you are able to get short breaks (I was declined despite the obvious severity of my sons disability but I know others who were awarded it).

Most importantly look after yourself. It’s a tough few years. Get away with friends regularly if you can. Try and keep up a hobby to keep yourself sane

You need a plan B for your surgery op. The current plan won’t work.

It’s your child. You need to look after them. If they don’t have the staff then they don’t. Also if he hurts others perhaps think about those kids and how you would feel

Hi
I'm sorry to hear the difficulties you're having. I have no advice regarding nursery however have you tried magnesium supplements. They should help with sleep for your little one

They are being honest with you. They don’t have the staff to support his needs at the moment. From what you’ve explained, your son doesn’t receive any additional funding yet for the additional support the nursery need to give him.
Therefore, this adjustment to ratios for your son comes out of their pocket.

Your nursery are actually being very honest and sensible. It’s their responsibility to ensure they can meet all children’s needs during the day. They’ve assessed that your son needs increased support and they have made an adjustment for this.
Yes you are in a tricky situation, with your op, but don’t project it onto the nursery.
Schools also place children on part time timetables when necessary.
Be glad you have a great nursery that are putting children’s needs first 👌
Or if you feel that strongly about it, go elsewhere.

I’m sorry but your DS nursery sounds shit! If he cannot cope with 9-3 they should absolutely be doing appropriate referrals now!

My DS’s pre school have -

Made a referral for autism assessment (current wait is 3 years!)
Applied and gained inclusion funding for DS
Had DS seen and assessment by the LA Educational Consultant and they referred DS to the Communication and interaction team.
Been assessed by the Communication and interaction team.
Applied for an EHC needs assessment

You nursery need to start the ball rolling now as everything takes so long. Intitually DS was not accepted onto the autism waitlist so I had to get his GP to write as well. The EHC needs assessment has been refused despite multiple reports for professional so I have appealed. I’m waiting for a tribunal date and even when heard (assuming I win) the LA is operating many months outside of statutory timescales therefore DS will not have an EHCP in place for when he starts school in September 2024.

I haven’t RtWT but pls start the EHCP process asap, children enter reception with one. You need to push everyone to start the process - GP, nursery, SENCO.

@Pasqual

My DS has an EHCP which was allocated just before he was due to start reception. I initiated it myself. I got a speech and language referral, paediatric referral, hearing tests done etc.
During a home visit, I asked for a recommendation for an SEN focussed preschool - and was recommended an excellent preschool with a great SENCO.
I wouldn’t wait for the health visitor/preschool to get the ball rolling. Look up how to initiate an EHCP, look up speech and language referral, speak to your GP/lookup paediatric referral. EHCP that I initiated in October was finalised by the next June. There are supposed to do it within a time frame, but if you chase and demand you’ll hopefully get what is needed.
The EHCP will give extra allocated support. I also applied for DLA : which works out at about £250 allowance per month. A long form to fill out - but worth it!

As others have said, many replies are sadly not going to help OP as they are referring to the English system (EHCP) and OP is in Scotland.

I'm in north east Scotland and we have some wonderful charities up here who you may be able to contact for advice/ can maybe sign post you to charities In your area.

Look up - Wee Too, Early Intervention and Sensenationall. All based in Aberdeen. All I'm sure can tell you more about the Scottish system and support available.

I don't know about specific ASN policy for children but I'd look into Getting it Right for Every Child ( known as GIRFEC) on Scot gov Website.