Nursery not allowing full time hours

[Pasqual]

Hello,

I'm looking to see if anyone else has been in this situation and has any advice to offer.

My 3.5 year old started his full time nursery place in August. Prior to this he attended a private nursery 1 day and week and was there 8am-5pm.

Long story short is that I have been asking for assistance from our health visitor since he was 2. He doesn't communicate verbally with us, doesn't make eye contact, doesn't play with other children (prefers to play alone) and has very high energy all the time. We are currently working with SLT.

When he started his new nursery I met with them prior and explained my concerns and asked for help. They provided me with techniques they use in the nursery and we had implemented these at home prior to him starting as he responds very well to routine.

He initially attended for an hour and a half a day we accepted this as we understood he needed time to settle in. We asked 4 weeks later about increasing his time and they stated they didn't have the capacity. I questioned this and they said they had him on a 1 to 1 ratio and they couldn't facilitate it.

I requested a meeting back in November and they agreed to keep him until after lunch time, we now pick him up at 12:30. They also admitted that he wasn't 1 to 1 but that he does require someone to keep an eye as he struggles with sharing if another child approaches him to play.

I am due to have a major operation and will not be able to drive for at least 12 weeks. Due to shifts, I do the majority of drop offs as my husband also works full time and pick ups are split between grandparents. I have asked the nursery to increase at least 2 of his days to full time (9-3) to assist and they are refusing stating he gets too tired and they don't have the staff to facilitate. My daughter's school is in the same building and when I'm out of action, we will be asking grandparents to do 6 runs to and from the school and one set doesn't drive.

He is tired at the end of the day when we pick him up but he doesn't sleep well at night. My hopes is that if he gets settled into a routine his sleep might even out.

Am I wrong for pushing this? Are they allowed to refuse this?
He is entitled to his hours, there are other children on a 1 to 1 ratio who get to stay all day.
If we tried it and it really wasn't working, I could accept that but they haven't even given him a chance to see how he gets on.

I’m in Scotland. Firstly, your child’s named person is their health visitor so they should be taking forward any assessments etc. Secondly, it is very difficult to get 1:1 funding for children. If he’s a risk to other children and staff by hitting, lashing out etc they will be taking this into account in their ratios.

Contact these people - Scottish equivalent of SENDIASS in England.
https://enquire.org.uk/

I’m in Scotland. I would suggest you contact your Local Authority’s central Early Years team to discuss this, if you haven’t already. You are entitled to 1140 hours per year, but it may be that you will have to split your hours between settings or move to a different setting to get the full hours. I know this isn’t the ideal setup for pick ups, and it would be perfect to have both children in the same school. Only you can choose what is ultimately best for your family.

Ashleyblue this was exactly what I was thinking too

I agree with pp about potentially moving settings. I have had 2 DC with SEN both able to attend (different) nurseries full time (8-5). They were private nurseries and super supportive. Neither child had an EHCP during nursery years, just a SEND support plan (we are in England).

Also, though it's not what you asked in your OP, I'd think ahead to the school years and make some contingency plans, as we found we were unable to find any local wraparound or holiday childcare that would take children with SEN.

It’s not compulsory school age so they have no legal obligations to have him full time if they are unable to accommodate his needs , if he is needing supervising by a member of staff most of the time then that’s one adult down for the setting. If he is not starting school for almost 2 years then that maybe their reluctance to start referrals yet, but that doesn’t stop
you doing some of the ground work . In England there is such long waiting lists that some referrals for speech and language are being rejected if they are not considered severe enough .
Start with your G.P, you need to see a paediatrician, they will be the ones to help with diagnosing.

You need to push very hard now for an EHCNA - do not wait for your health visitor or the nursery to help you. You also need to push very hard for further assessments. You need to get onto those (very long) waiting lists as soon as possible.

I also think you need to look into what other school and especially special school provision there is near you. I wouldn't assume the same school will work for your son. If your child is going to struggle in mainstream your worst case scenario is that they crash out completely at some point as they can't cope, have associated trauma and you cannot then get a special school place as the places tend to fill up early on.

I would also be looking at other nurseries or consider going back to the old nursery. If a school or nursery doesn't want to accommodate and help your child it often isn't worth the battle (and if your child does have SEN sadly you have many more battles ahead...) trying to force them to.

I’ve had some experience with this. If they are struggling with keeping him safe on the ratios they have, it’s on them to be building evidence to apply for additional funding to support your child. If they do this properly, there will be a paper trail of evidence to support an application for an ECHP in the future.

If they are refusing to even attempt to get support for your child, despite saying that they can’t cope with their behaviour, then I’d question if they are the right setting for them. Seems like it’ll be an uphill battle for you both.

He's 3.5. He's entitled to a nursery education in Scotland.

Contact the council Early Years team for advice.
They will know best whether a full time nursery place can be refused based on undiagnosed SEN. And they should be able to put in support or advice for the setting to manage the situation.

Why did you move him from his previous nursery? Can you send him back there if they can offer you the hours you need? You don't need to use a specific 'pre school' most nurseries have a pre school room

Hi OP.
This sounds like a tricky situation and I'm sorry you are experiencing it.
I'm afraid you are going to have to be a proactive advocate for your child.
At this stage I can advise you that

1. You can apply for an EHCP yourself. Go to your council website or the .gov website and just keep searching/clicking through. You will find it eventually; its not always easy to find.
2. You can apply for PIP and carers allowance.
3. Definitely don't give up on Assessment, even if it comes after school starts. Chase up his position on the waiting list.
4. If you have the funds, private assessment is a good option. It doesn't speed up state help, but it's just as valid for diagnosis and getting "reasonable adjustments " for school.
5. Keep a journal/log of your child's needs and progress, incidents, care requirements along with dates so when you come to form filling, assessment Interviews it's all there. Include things nursery carers have said, ask for written assessment from them too. This can all help for the above applications.
6. Educate yourself on how to meet children's needs /manage behaviour who have neurodiversity. See what works and keep it up/change when necessary.
7. If the Health visitor isn't helping find a GP who will. See all of them at your surgery, and the nurse practitioners until you find someone who is supportive. Ask if there is someone with a specialism in paeds or neurodiversity.
8. Look for local charities like AMAZE. use the citizens advise bureau for form help and local advice and information.
9. Build a supportive network and prioritise some time for yourself to do things you enjoy.

As for the Nursery, I think others have given good ideas for how to move forward with that.

I'd ask what hours they are claiming for him and if they claim more than he is allowed to attend I'd report them. I'd move him to another nursery where he can attend and have his full hours. He deserves to have his full hours as that may bring his development on. Only having part days may be holding him back.

If it's a state nursery then all you're entitled to is 2.5 hours a day (morning or afternoon) and the only way you'd get more is if he attended a special school and in that setting you'd get this evened out - so 2 days one week, three the next.

Someone mentioned a 1:1 above and funding. That funding would come from education and would be given via an assessment to see if he has a learning difficulty. If he does then they will give him 12 hours a week with an education funded 1:1 as that's all he's eligible for until he starts compulsory schooling. If they feel he does not then sorry but they won't fund it. The best way to access this or a special school is through a diagnosis. So keep pushing for that.

Alternatively your child doesn't need to go to school until he reaches compulsory age. If there is a better setting that would offer full time care but isn't state registered (ie a private nursery) then you can keep sending him there. I have friends who've chosen to do this as it's easier for them. Children are pretty much just funneled through the system here but you absolutely can keep him at a private nursery until he has a diagnosis and then look at a specialist setting or one with a ALN/SEN unit who can support him further.

The fact of the matter is that until he reaches compulsory school age there isn't much anywhere HAS to offer you. If they can offer it great but he's not entitled to anything at the moment. It's just navigating the system and keeping pushing so those things are in place when he starts compulsory education.

Theyve told you they dont have the staff to accomodate him and that could leave the ratio of staff to children too low. That then puts other children at risk. You need to get an EHCP if your child needs that much one to one attention

OP is Scottish. Nearly all the replies on here are not accurate

That is absolutely not ok. You child is entitled to his hours the same as any other child and if the pre school cannot cope/doesn't have the staff, then the council needs to provide that support, ie, fund another member of staff or whatever it is they need and the pre school needs to get their act together. Your child is certainly not the first child with additional support needs they have encountered. You may need to contact the LA yourself if they're not doing it. My son has been 1:1 since he started nursery at 18 months and is still 1:1 (he is now 16!) We had to almost take the LA to tribunal three times, once at pre school age, once at primary when they refused the EHCP and again when applying for secondary but the bottom line is your child deserves, and is entitled to, the support he needs to access the provision. It is not fine for the pre school to simply say we can't meet his needs so he can't be here all the time or some of the time. Unfortunately, parents of children with SEND almost always end up fighting and fighting for their child's rights to be respected and their needs met.

This isn't really related to the nursery issue but if I were you I would strongly advise saving for or looking at a private diagnosis. My son has a mild sen and schools/councils/nurseries whilst being vaguely supportive didn't really do anything until we rocked up with a diagnosis and a report clarifying he is officially disabled and as a result has rights, they legally must make adaptions for him etc. It massively helps explaining specifics and being able to point to a legally defined disability. If you go on a wait list it could be a long long time and if, for example, a non mainstream school would suit him then you'll need a diagnosis to start the process.
Our son didn't have a diagnosis at nursery and they were pretty good anyway, they gave him extra support and worked hard at managing meltdowns but sometimes I'd need to pick him up if they couldn't manage- I didn't like it if I was busy at work but ultimately, they have the right if they can't safely manage a behaviour or need. Can you meet with them to discuss it, especially if it's just for a few weeks whilst you're out of action?

Push for a referral for an assessment and if the school won’t do it then go to your GP to see if they will refer instead. The waiting lists are long! My son was referred in December of reception and we got an ASD diagnosis in Feb of year 1 and ADHD in July of year 1 so it took over 18 months to get full diagnosis and he was referred before the Covid backlog of referrals really got underway. The list was 42 weeks when he was referred but we waited 56 for the first appt. It is now over 2 years in our area. The sooner you can get him on the list the better. My son’s school were proactive and said they’d rather refer him and then him not need it than wait longer to see if he settled more.

@Pasqual I feel for you and we've been there. Unfortunately, some schools/nursery's are better and more inclusive, than others. I wish I'd taken my son out of the one who cut his hours so significantly from the start. I accepted it to begin with because I trusted them. It's a very long story but when I realised they were actually just lazy and going against paediatric advice I gathered the evidence and made it impossible for them to not do the right thing by him. He's in year 5 now at the same school, and he's thriving, he's an EHCP and has the correct level of support. His speech and learning came on through lockdown when he was at home with us and his siblings. He's done full time since the October of reception, yet his entire preschool year at the same school he did less than a morning per day. Nothing changed in his development but there was a financial incentive for them when in reception and they didn't want me to take it further after cottoning on to their not so great intentions, the bottom line is, he was always able "to cope" with full time but they'd have moved him on if they could've gotten away with it. My advice is, contact SENDIASS they're a government run charity who will help advocate for your child, go to your GP about a referral for paediatric assessment (waiting list is huge so do this asap) and I went to a private speech and language therapist who did a consultation and report, it wasn't the right time for speech and language therapy but the paperwork was useful for EHCP documentation to prove need, I think you say you have seen SLT so perhaps they could assist with report/documenting needs? Ask the nursery for his file and his IEP if they have one for him, they should at least be able to tell you how they're supporting him, they have a duty to give you everything and with that information you will have evidence of what they have done or not done to support him.
It's a horrible fight and it's not on but don't worry, you'll get there.x

I’m in Scotland and work as an ASN teacher, not early years, but the overarching principles remain.

Firstly your child shouldn’t need a diagnosis to have needs met. The nursery should be working on a needs, not diagnosis, first basis.

My advice is that you ask for an assessment of need to be completed through the Getting it Right for Every Child (GIRFEC) process.

The assessment should look at your child’s and family’s strengths and challenges; from this needs and risks will be identified. The assessment should include information from parents, nurseries, SLT and anyone else who knows your child with relevant information.

The assessment should also cover your child’s ability to be included (this is questionable at present with the limited hours being accessed), along with this, the impact his needs may be having on yourselves as a family should also be investigated. It might sound selfish but if he didn’t have the needs he has, he would be attending his full hours and you’d be working or getting on with your life while he was in nursery. At the moment he’s currently being discriminated against because he has additional needs which are not currently being met. Don’t be afraid to use this language, it’s always the pushy parents who aren’t afraid to say how it is who get things moving.

If the nursery doesn’t have the resources, then the local authority should find the resources; beware that this may not necessarily be within the same nursery if they feel his needs (necessary support level, environment etc) is best met elsewhere but if it means you get your hours, then that’s something you should consider (split placement may also be suitable, especially if the split included access to a more specialist, experienced setting).

If you get a plan opened, desired outcomes should be agreed at the meeting - one of these could be for your child to be able to access X hours of nursery provision. You might not get it immediately but an action to meet this outcome could be a plan to gradually extend hours over a set period of time. Make sure there’s an outcome in there to make sure that his nursery to primary transition is planned properly: consider appropriate learning environment, enhanced transition process to include extra familiarisation visits etc. Full time nursery attendance will be essential to prepare for school!

It’s not easy being a parent of a child with ASN, no matter how severe or mild there needs are - you’ll need to fight all the time for them, but it is doable. Just remember about yourself too - you’re entitled to a career, time to yourself etc, so fight for yourselves as parents too - anything over and above what a regular parent does should also be supported. Think equity not equality.

Heres the downside- your HV is “named person” and should be the person kickstarting the GIRFEC assessment process. You may need to contact their superior if you cannot get anywhere, alternatively the nursery can do it, and if they refuse, then I’d suggest that you approach Social Work and ask for assistance from that side.

If all else fails, contact Enquire https://enquire.org.uk/ who will give you impartial specialist advice and will ultimately point you in the direction of accessing tribunals to make sure your son gets what he needs.

Good luck!

Contact IPSEA or sossen

Start gathering evidence and apply for EHCP.

ask for educational psychologist assessment. Look on social media there’s lots of Sen groups

OP, look up on local FB local ASD support groups. They usually have quite knowledgeable parents willing to share their experience and happy to guide you on which door to knock.

The support level will vary as it depends on Local Authority. If you don’t have any luck with your HV please get in touch with your GP surgery,they are able to make referrals to paediatricians. There should be Child Health Centre in every biggish city.

As for the lack of sleep- limit screen time (if he has any) well before bedtime and you can also get a prescription from GP for melatonine.

You sound entitled the way you keep pushing it despite them constantly telling you no.
Yes, that are allowed to refuse it. If you don't like it you need to find a new nursery.
You've really no idea what working with 30 kids is like do you. They have their reasons for saying no

Her child is entitled to 1140 of early learning and childcare and the lical authority is required to support OP to access these services.