Anyone else feeling sick waiting to see what the PIP cuts will be?

[Somethingthecatdraggedin7]

Wondering if I will still be able to pay for the numerous services and things my disabilities necessitate.
I think, given I have such severe issues, that I may be one of the “lucky” ones as from what I have read so far I would still have enough pip points plus I am older and have stage 4 cancer (separate to my other significant disability) but who knows.
Even if I escape the cull I am sad and scared for others who may lose their award.

Some things I can add:
(1) A refunded journey is not the same as actually getting to where you need to be when you need to be there. I imagine that an employer will rapidly lose patience with an employee who is often late, regardless of it being the train company's fault. Ticket refunds won't save that worker's job.
(2) Assistance to board the train doesn't always translate into assistance on the train, working accessible facilities on the train, or assistance to leave the train at one's destination.

It should, indeed be a safe space and we just need to call out people who are trawling it in order to goad or talk crap about things they know nothing about. They shouldn’t be posting here. These are people who feel emboldened to be nasty and condescending because of the government’s stance on this which is actually quite close to calling a lot of people fakers. Nobody on here knows what anyone’s life with a disability is really like. Or who is able to do what. And it’s not for anyone to feel they need to justify themselves either.

It's not easy to navigate the world when your hands don't work either. Public transport often moves off whilst you are still moving to your seat, but you can't grab the grab poles because your hands don't grip properly. This assumes that you can find a seat to begin with. When the bus is hourly, waiting for the next one in the hope of a seat isn't an option.

Taxis guarantee you a seat and you can ask the driver to be patient whilst you deal with the seatbelt, but they are so spendy, four times the price or more for the same distance.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate One thing about the trains is you are forced to rely on passenger assistance if you are a wheelchair user even if you are travelling with a carer. I can’t go anywhere alone and always have someone with me but still can’t embark or disembark with help from just that person; I have to have a ramp in place provided by the train people.

Fortunately I only travel by train once or twice a year and for very important reasons like essential medical appointments we can’t get to by car. It is so stressful and high risk.

I should point out that a number of the people criticising people with disabilities for not working, for claiming benefits, or for having disabilities that aren't really serious, on here and threads elsewhere, have disabilities themselves. Apparently though, theirs are better disabilities and so they are entitled to what they get when others aren't, or they are proud that they don't demean themselves by claiming benefits unlike the skivers who do. When you can't even rely on other people with disabilities to have compassion or empathy towards other people with disabilities, then you are on a very lost cause.

I wish we could discuss these topics without flagrant hostility every time a person with a disability disagrees with the “approved” disabled person’s Official Opinion (which seems to be that you can never ever think anyone is claiming fraudulently or that there is even any variation in severity of situation). That’s an unrealistic expectation and I don’t think people deserve the aggression and unkindness just for voicing a range of opinions. As I said earlier in the thread, people on MN have multiple times assumed I have the worst possible motives (or ironically am faking myself and just trying to manipulate the discussion) when on the contrary, I do want the best for disabled people, and for everyone, but part of that I genuinely believe rests in securing continued taxpayer consent to funding the welfare state.

(yes, that includes disabled people who pay taxes!)

How is it "flagrant hostility" to state a fact that some people with disablities do not agree with disability entitlements (for other people) - or is it that nobody is allowed to disagree with your position? Nor did I happen to specify any particular posters views (if the shoe fits?) and referred to several posters not any specific one poster- just a general comment that it is sad that some posters with disabilities talk down everyone elses entitlement, or judge people who claim their entitlement negatively.

Everyone is entitled to not claim (or to claim) and should not be judged either way as a result. Equally, those who do claim judging others who claim have no right to do so - if the DWP have accepted that claim it is nobody elses place to say (without a shred of evidence or knowing anything about them) that they aren't rightly entitled to that benefit. And anyone who wants to save money for the taxpayers is perfectly entitled to stop claiming themselves.

There might be more confidence and trust in the system from people with disabilities if the process was not so seriously broken that people deserving of and entitled to support are not so frequently denied it. There is nothing in the proposals that addresses making sure that the people entitled to support get it, just that a larger group shouldn't be entitled to support and with no realistic proposals to offer them any alternatives. It's all very well and good, but the NHS cannot treat and support people with long term and chronic health conditions and employers don't want them.

I was responding to a specific proposition made by @Lyannaa which made exactly the same point: It should, indeed be a safe space and we just need to call out people who are trawling it in order to goad or talk crap about things they know nothing about. They shouldn’t be posting here. These are people who feel emboldened to be nasty and condescending because of the government’s stance on this which is actually quite close to calling a lot of people fakers. Nobody on here knows what anyone’s life with a disability is really like. Or who is able to do what. And it’s not for anyone to feel they need to justify themselves either.

@Lyannaa assumes that a safe space for people with disabilites should be safe from judgements about their disability / entitlement, and it isn't.

In the end some may think that other people shouldn't be entitled to disability benefits, or that too many people claim them. But there is always an assumption it won't be "yours" they come for. That is by no means a safe assumption.

Yes. Actually, I do see this elsewhere too. On Facebook groups about child DLA. It’s full of people who feel justified about their own claim but can’t wait to tell others they shouldn’t be claiming.

Anyone with a disability should know and understand that other people who don’t have experience of your specific disability won’t know anything about it. I wouldn’t presume to start mouthing off about how someone ought to do x, y and z if they have a disability that I know nothing about.

I keep seeing rude, ignorant and patronising comments about autistic people being articulate so they should be able to work. If you find yourself saying that, it shows how you’re ignorant about invisible disabilities.

But you can’t assume anything about other people’s claims because this is an internet forum. You take what people say at face value. Or you should do. You certainly shouldn’t be assuming that someone seems any sort of way because you don’t live their life.

Oh, I totally agree with you! I wouldn’t assume anything about someone’s claim on here. I think anyone who attacks someone on MN for phrasing a description of their claim wrongly is definitely being unfair.

I’m just talking about discussing the topic in more general terms or giving examples of issues you might be familiar with from elsewhere. But for instance, the thread that was mentioned recently where people attacked someone who was suicidal is completely wrong at every level.

@PhilippaGeorgiou It’s not “if the shoe fits”, no. I responded to your post because I have seen this kind of hostility posted on many threads, many times, by many different posters. It isn’t one individual. But you have certainly engaged in it extensively. Nevertheless I don’t blame any specific person, it’s definitely an intra community issue as I’ve seen this same phenomenon in other disability focused groups. Probably a bigger topic than can be discussed on this thread!

There is a lot of pressure to adhere to what some feel is the “approved” community viewpoint on something. That’s what I’m referring to. I don’t agree that that is right. I’m not talking about it being okay, ever, to attack individual Mumsnetters about their claims. In my view that’s wrong. I don’t agree that talking about the overall topic of how to administer a welfare state is attacking, though. You yourself posted a suggestion of how you’d like it to be different (approved by HCPs rather than the DWP), which I actually agree with!

@verysmellyjelly We disagree on just about everything, so there was bound to be something we'd agree on in the end. But I said nothing about you or anyone else. I made a general comment which you chose to attack me about making. Then accuse me of attacking you! I have absolutely no interest in your opinions, as you have none in mine. You didn't need to attack me as you did. You chose to. I am now choosing to go back to ignoring you. I have said what I had to say and stand by it.

@PhilippaGeorgiou I honestly didn’t intend my comment to be an attack. Sorry that it came off that way.

Well, yes. One reason our economy is in trouble, now is likely to be due to all the furlough payments that had to be made during Covid quarantines which was nobody’s fault but must have cost a huge amount.

I think people forget about that. Now it’s a distant memory and whilst they were happy to be taken care of in their time of need, they can now blame disabled people and call them scroungers. It’s so hypocritical.

Yep and certain quarters were happy to use disabled people as a tool to emotionally blackmail others into following Covid lockdowns and restrictions. So did Tories AND Labour
Disabled and ill people were ill enough THEN Only when it suits an agenda it seems to me.

Oh FFS.

Pointing out that fraud is less than half of a percent of claims is not saying "that you can never ever think anyone is claiming fraudulently". It's saying that it's so rare that it's a non-issue.

there is even any variation in severity of situation

Quote me someone who has actually said this. No one has.

securing continued taxpayer consent to funding the welfare state.

We don't secure that consent by conceding to the false narrative about fraud. We secure that consent by rebutting that false narrative with proven facts, citing Govt sources like DWP, that fraud is less than 0.5% and the high proportion of appeals that are successful. We secure that consent by highlighting how much other benefits cost the country because the pensions bill alone dwarfs disability payments.

the “approved” disabled person’s Official Opinion

You mean the one called "logic, backed up with evidence"? It is very important to have a united front against the libel spouted by the press when we are all at risk.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate No, I think the fraud rate is both much lower than the ableist narrative about “they’re all just benefit scrounging fakers!” would suggest (obviously not the case, most claimants are not lying and fraudulent), but also higher than the current rate discovered by the DWP. I’m well aware this is a deeply unpopular opinion but it’s based on literally years of the discourse around the topic that I’ve seen in dozens of support groups and similar online. That doesn’t mean I assume people are faking or don’t deserve their disability benefit. As I said in an earlier comment, I default assume people are genuine. But I have unfortunately a lot of experience of the seamy side of the online disability world.

And yes, there are absolutely are people who freak out at the mention of differing levels of severity of disability, of wildly varying levels of need, and similar topics. This has been an issue in disability communities online for years now. If you haven’t seen it, good for you. I have done.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate We don't secure that consent by conceding to the false narrative about fraud. We secure that consent by rebutting that false narrative with proven facts, citing Govt sources like DWP, that fraud is less than 0.5% and the high proportion of appeals that are successful. We secure that consent by highlighting how much other benefits cost the country because the pensions bill alone dwarfs disability payments.

I think we need to be very careful with that argument. It shouldn't be a race to the bottom, and we already see the same narratives about pensioners. There are already plenty of comments about means testing pensions (which in the long term may be practical, but we have generations who have paid NI based on a premise of earning a pension - I know that isn't exactly true, but the fact remains that people have been told "collect so many years and you get a pension"). Look at the winter fuel fiasco - people losing an essential payment without any notice often over a £ or two over the threshold.

The problem with all of this is that the best way to obtain consent and buy-in from everyone is with reasoned thought out strategies, and that takes time. What we are seeing is knee-jerk reactions driven by baying mobs. People with disabilities are the new "Salem witches" - someone to blame for what is rotten in the system, when it is the system and the approach that is wrong.

For example - working is good for you. That is a scientifically proven fact. People in work have longer life-expectancies and more positive health outcomes overall. That applies as much to people with disabilities as to the general population. And whilst some people may never be able to ork , even for an hour a week, flexibly, they are a real minority. What we need is a real conversation about creating a culture amongst employers to make them want to employ people with health problems and disabilities. We also need the advisors and trainers and training to help people appropriately (but today news is they don't have enough of even job coaches). We need people to have strategies to improve their health which means fixing the NHS and GP services. And we need a return to some of the supported employment opportunities that enabled seriously disabled people who will never manage in a workplace to opportunity to earn money and be proud of themselves. And even with all of those things some people will still need benefits and they will need something like PIP that "compensates" for some of the additional costs of disability. And above all we need all those things doing with people who have disabilities and not to them.

I fail to see your point. It's fairly obvious that you were opposed to the lockdowns. It's an opinion. But it was scientific and medical fact that some (not by any means all) people with weakened immune systems or older people were more likely to contract Covid and to have more serious outcomes (including death). It isn't "blackmail" to tell people the truth. Are you suggesting that the world should have let them die in even greater numbers so that you could go walkabout?

Thats not what i meant. Its absolutely not OK to use a whole group of people to make a narrative when you couldnt give a fuck about that same group the rest of the time As these cuts prove. DH has COPD ischemic heart disease and arthritis and uses a mobility scooter and he was/is furious at this absolute hypocrisy. Disabled ppl arent one big homogenous mass.
Same with essential workers. Everybody praising them to the hilt at the time then when it was over back to ppl moaning about them living in "free" social housing. Being told to self isolate in the spare room by the same Government that implemented the bedroom tax. Strange how that hasnt stopped said bedroom tax

@JenniferBooth 👏 👏

Well folks, those of you who have been annoyed with me in the past because you think I’ve been too willing to agree with discussions around cuts and so on might be somewhat pleased to hear that I have rethought my position quite a lot. I missed the thread that was mentioned recently where a Mumsnetter posted about her distress over the Green Paper and people were terrible in response, but the same thing has happened again in the past 24 hours and this time I’ve had a front row seat. While it hasn’t 100% changed my mind about a few small specific things that I know others disagree with me on, I do see much more clearly why other MNers with disabilities were annoyed with me now. I hadn’t really fully comprehended the depth of hatred directed at us on the site until now, because although I did know it was a very ableist site in lots of ways, I (foolishly I suppose) thought a lot of that was ignorance.

But having been one of the people participating on this particular thread, trying very patiently to explain aspects of how a difficult to understand condition works (not even one of my own conditions!) and receiving astonishing responses from abled people that were truly running the gamut of hate and ignorance… well, it fully gives me the context of how people are willing to sink to those depths even in response to basic factual info. And even in a thread someone has made about their own highly difficult circumstances.

So I think I was just wrong to believe it was possible to have a reasonable conversation with these haters, and it was probably partly my autism leading me to overestimate the likelihood of reasoned debate being effective. Clearly it doesn’t have an impact. I can see why in this context it was frustrating and upsetting for other people with disabilities to feel like I was essentially taking the haters’ side, so I apologise. It’s true I haven’t fully 100% changed my mind on every aspect, but ultimately my loyalty to others with disabilities is more important than trying to explain (and failing obviously) our lives and challenges to abled people.

I think I know the thread you mean. Yes, it was awful how able bodied MNers were piling on the OP telling her how to live her life.

That thread was disgusting. Why mnhq allow them to run and run, I don't know. The hate is real and very disturbing.

It opened my eyes to how much many of the abled people on MN hate us and made me see why I was wrong before.