Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

They know that criminalising the punter reduces demand - therefore reduces income. But they know that alone isn't going win them much support so they've thrown in human rights and safety for sex workers and consenting adults - lovely libertarian terms - to get people hand wringing.

But it's not true. Because the Swedish example has shown its safer.

"pimp-networks" What "pimp-networks"?

I know the Swedish Government said street prostitution has halved. But that may be because 1999 was around the time the internet for everyday households took off. The reduction of street prostitution may be because of internet bookings and not because of the law.

They know that criminalising the punter reduces demand

Has it? A Google search for escorts in Stockholm brings up heaps of results. They wouldn't be there if if wasn't for "demand" would they?

From Sweden's own report in 2011:

Street prostitution reduced by half. This reduction may be considered to be a direct result of the criminalisation of sex purchases. In a comparison, we have noted that the prevalence of street prostitution was about the same in the three capital cities of Norway, Denmark and Sweden before the ban on the purchase of sexual services was introduced here, but the number of people Street prostitution in both Norway and Denmark subsequently increased dramatically. In 2008, the number of people in street prostitution in both Norway and Denmark was estimated to be three times higher than in Sweden.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that prostitution has been pushed underground:

there is nothing to indicate that Internet-based prostitution has increased more in Sweden than in these comparable countries (Denmark & Norway). This contradicts the idea that street prostitution has simply changed arenas to the Internet. With this in mind it seems reasonable to conclude that the 50% decrease in street prostitution that has occurred is a real reduction of prostitution in Sweden, and that this reduction is probably primarily an effect of the criminalisation of sex purchases.

Has it not?

If the law hadn't been introduced there could have been 10 times as many results as there is now. Could there not?

See where I am going with this?

The street reduction may be because of the climate change, and Sweden may have dropped a few degrees on the average temperature recorded in 1999.

Any one else want to join in with made up hypothesis about why something could be the case?

Is rhinoceer claiming that Women's Aid, Barnardos, Rape Crisis centers, etc are in sinister, and possibly corrupt cahoots with Atlantic Philanthropies who are paying them to support the Nordic model?

Is he suggesting that the funding provided for "a national study of sexual violence in the Ireland" to The Dublin Rape Crisis Centre was used in a fraudulent manner or consists of some sort of bribe???

Really?? I don't know whether to laugh or report his posts to MNHQ.

"And indoor prostitution? Oh yeah, it's illegal and out of sight so that means noone knows. "

Except you Rhino. ???

If it is out of sight and no one knows, then it could be reduced, couldn't it?

If know one knows, then no one can say if it has increased or if it has gone down then?

You seem to be arguing...............nothing.

It is the attitudes of men who would be punters that determines how much prostitution exists in any given place. If men think that they are entitled to purchase sex, indeed that they have a 'human right' to purchase sex, if it is legal and normalised in a society - they will be more likely to go to prostitutes.

Research has shown that the attitude towards the purchase of sex is changing in Sweden - and that's just after a decade of the laws being in place. It will take a couple of generations for it to really take effect.

Criminalisation of the punter tells people that it is not socially acceptable to buy women for sex. It says that society doesn't accept the gender inequality and the damage to women and girls caused by the sex trade.

OMFG he did actually say it. Rhinoceer you should report that post to MNHQ and ask for it to be deleted.

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 19:47:14
Dublin Rape Crisis Centre only gets $177,965 of funding.

This is the funding they get from Atlantic Philanthropies for saying they support the Nordic model.

Yes beach very quick to shout libel, but not so up on the term slander.

I think that's what he's saying, Beach.
At first I thought he was trying to imply that Barnados was spending $14,000,000 on campaigning against legalisation, but then I reckoned he was just saying that they don't really like the Nordic model, they are just pretending to in order to please their sponsors. Not clear what the sponsors' sinister reason is for paying massive amounts of money to all these organisations to get them to support the Nordic model. Perhaps it involves giant lizards.

rhino, whenthered has already pointed you to threads where the research was discussed at length. Since you clearly can't be bothered to read it, you can at the very least read this:

www.lse.ac.uk/geographyAndEnvironment/whosWho/profiles/neumayer/pdf/Article-for-World-Development-prostitution-anonymous-REVISED.pdf

It that's too much to ask, the summary is:

This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows.

Please also note from p.75:

This means that the number of prostitutes in Germany is more than 60 times that of Sweden, while having a population (82 million inhabitants) less than 10 times larger. In terms of human trafficking victims, the ILO estimated the stock of victims in Germany in 2004 to be approximately 32,800—about 62 times more than in Sweden (Danailova-Trainor & Belser, 2006).

So according to Rhinoceer, Dublin Rape Crisis center accepts bribes. Rhinoceer, you are spouting absolute nonsense. You are talking utter crap. This is the problem with copying and pasting the words of other people, because they fit in with your agenda, without actual engaging your brain or checking facts.

You are attacking charitable social justice organisations which try to help women, men and children with very limited funding. Because you think men have the right to stick their dicks in women. So anything goes, the tactics can be really dirty and dishonest. All because you attach so much importance to men being able to stick their dicks in women.

The hideous irony of you attacking rape crisis centers because you have an agenda of promoting men's rights to stick their dicks in women is quite extraordinary.

If the Nordic model is such a success care to explain why a Google search for escorts in Stockholm brings up heaps of results? After all these years demand must still be going strong.

"Dublin Rape Crisis center accepts bribes. "

This isn't what I said. I pointed out organisations who say they support the Nordic model get heaps of funding. Organisations who say they support decriminalization get nowt.

From Atlantic Philanthropies Wiki page

Republic of Ireland[edit]
AP has invested over $1 billion in third-level education on the island of Ireland, funding research facilities at the University of Limerick and Dublin City University as well as a library and sports facility at Trinity College Dublin.[28] AP's grants to Irish education are credited with helping initiate a boom in the Irish economy in the 1990s.[29]

AP has indicated that it will grant €80 million in Ireland in 2009 to children, elderly and human rights projects.[30] Atlantic recently awarded a €1.2 million grant to Barnados, one of Ireland's best-known children charities.[31]

The goals of its Reconciliation & Human Rights Programme in the Republic of Ireland are to strengthen the central human rights infrastructure and to improve access to justice and services for immigrants, people with disabilities and the LGBTI community. One Atlantic grantee, GLEN (Gay and Lesbian Equality Network) recently led a campaign to win civil partnership for gays and lesbians in the Republic of Ireland.[32]

What a load of bastards, eh?

I dunno rhinoceer.

Perhaps not enough rape crisis centers are being bribed??

You know what. I don't think you give a fuck about the Swedish model or whether it works or not.

Hence why engaging with you about it is a waste of time. What you care about is men being able to pay to put their penises in women.

Organisations who say they support decriminalization get nowt.

Off the top of me head, I'm thinking - maybe they're already funded by the profiteers of the sex industry; or

Maybe because most decent organisations can read the research that shows when prostitution is decriminalised, trafficking in women and girls for prostitution increases.

Which is not a good thing - thinks anyone who is not a trafficker or a pimp or a punter.

Just in case you missed my last Q:

If the Nordic model is such a success care to explain why a Google search for escorts in Stockholm brings up heaps of results? After all these years demand must still be going strong.

No rhinoceer you said;

rhinoceer Thu 06-Feb-14 19:47:14
Dublin Rape Crisis Centre only gets $177,965 of funding.

This is the funding they get from Atlantic Philanthropies for saying they support the Nordic model.

You quite clearly state that the funding is for saying they support the Nordic model. That would be a bribe and fraud considering the money was registered as being awarded to fund a study about violence against women.

Yes rhino your google search knocks out research by economists at the LSE.

This type of comment makes you look like an idiot.

No it doesn't. I'm pointing out how easy and quick it would be for potential punters in Sweden to contact and book an escort. Why do these sites exist after all these years? Why aren't they being shut down? Why aren't the escorts listed being rescued by support services?

rhino, The use of prostitutes in Sweden has reduced, whereas in comparable countries like Denmark where it is decriminalised, prostitution has increased.

Of course I'd like to see true equality where no man feels he has the right to pay a woman for sex - but putting laws in place that reduce prostitution and trafficking, rather than increase it, are a good thing.

So yes, you will still be able to find an escort in Stockholm - nobody's claiming it has been eradicated.

No one got rich out of that donation, you total and uttter nincompoop.

Sheesh, rhino now you're getting even worse! No-one has claimed prostitution is non-existent in Sweden. FFS stop embarrassing yourself.