Live webchat with Amnesty International Tuesday 4th Feb, 11-12pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Following the leaking of an Amnesty International policy document 'Decriminalisation of Sex Work: Policy Background', which argues that men who buy sex are ‘exercising their autonomy’ and should be allowed to do so ‘free from government interference’ there has been considerable discussion on the site and requests for a webchat.

Today, Kate Allen, Director of Amnesty International UK will be here between 11-12pm to answer your questions.

Please do join us live on Tuesday or ask your question on this thread in advance. Just a quick reminder that it’s one question per person; take a look at our webchat guidelines, here.

Best

MNHQ

"On the contrary Laura Lee on her testimony says she has spent 20+ years in brothels and escorting and says she has never once met or heard of any victims of trafficking."

Which says more about the value of her contribution than it does about victims of trafficking. Which seems to be what the NIA Committee thought about her too.

If Rachel Moran was lying, there would be lots of people who could say she was working at Starbucks or wherever from 15 to 22. One woman saying she didn't see her isn't very persuasive.

How much do you reckon Rachel is being paid by the Magdalene Sisters?

Here's what Laura Lee actually said about trafficking:

Mr Wells: You made the extraordinary comment that you had never met a woman who had been
trafficked or coerced into the sale of sexual services.
Mr Wells: I have to say that, in all the arguments that every organisation has made against clause 6,
that is the first time that anyone has said that. Yet, the PSNI, in its most recent figures, said that even
it, which is not the strongest and most strident supporter of the Bill, is aware that there were 50 or 60
victims of trafficking for sexual services in Northern Ireland. Does it have that totally wrong? Is there
no one out there being coerced into providing sexual services?
Ms Lee: No, I am not saying that for one moment. However, obviously as an independent operator, I
can say that there are very few other sex workers with whom I would come into contact on a regular
basis. I do not work in a brothel.
Mr Wells: So, you are saying that it is not that they are not out there, it is just that you have not
encountered them.
Ms Lee: I acknowledge that there is a problem, but I do not think that it is as widespread as is being
reported.
Mr Wells: So, do you accept that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of young women in the United
Kingdom and the Irish Republic who have been brought in for the sale of sexual services, some of
whom have been trafficked, some induced and some of their own free will?
Ms Lee: Yes, that is a fair thing to say.
Mr Wells: So, there is trafficking and there is coercion?
Ms Lee: There is, yes.

But we know that trafficked women and girls are in existence - whether Laura is lying has encountered them or not. We know this because of the testimony of survivors of trafficking. We know that damaged, abused and drug addicted women are in prostitution because they can't find a way out.

It's these very vulnerable women that need to be protected by prostitution laws.

It's always interesting that the sex-worker advocates accuse all and sundry of being in the pay of others - when in reality it is the sex worker advocates that have the financial vested interest in a decriminalised and expanding sex industry. They're the ones making money out of the sex industry and campaigning to do so more freely under the illusory guise of "sex workers rights."

And here's what she actually said about Rachel Moran:

Moran and I worked in Dublin at the same time, the early nineties. I worked in the same brothels, for the same escort agencies and had regular contact through the drop in clinic on Haddington road with the same women, she says she stood on street corners with. One of those women is now a prominent activist working alongside me and is prepared to swear an affidavit to the effect that she has never set eyes on Moran until her book launch. That's not to say that Moran is falsifying the fact that she worked on the street, but isn't it odd that they never met ?

Ah - X-post with chazzer.

Is that what you meant to say rhino? That in fact Laura Lee does not work in a brothel, and does acknowledge that there are trafficked and coerced women?

Laura Lee is editor of Harlot's Parlour. She took over the role from, you guessed it.......Douglas Fox.

That man does keep popping up doesn't he?

I can't seem to find her statement on BBC parliament but here it is on youtube.

Here's the transcript www.niassembly.gov.uk/Documents/Official-Reports/Justice/2013-2014/140109_HumanTraffickingetcBill(InternationalUnionofSexWorkers).pdf

Rachel Moran is excellent. I have heard her speak, and read her book.
And to think I never realised she was having her strings pulled by invisible nuns

chazzer there are a number of possibilities:

• this woman is telling the truth and Rachel Moran is lying
• this woman is lying about having worked on the same brothels, escort agencies and/or street corners
• this woman is telling the truth about where she worked but lying about never having seen RM
• this woman is not lying but can't remember everyone she encountered on the street 20 years ago.

If RM wasn't in prostitution during that time, there would be people who would be able to say where she actually was. Someone saying "I didn't see her" isn't worth much.

I would encourage everyone to watch Laura Lee's evidence. She helps the proponents of the Swedish model more than the pimp lobby. She didn't know how many members were in the IUSW but followed up after the meeting to clarify that there are 10 members and it is a closed group. She didn't say how many were pimps.

Flora, I agree on both points. I just wanted to share the original quotes a rhino seemed to have misread represented them

yes but you want to criminalize our clients and thus make working conditions for sex workers more dangerous. You will never end the demand, as SEX is a primal urge and need. Criminalizing our client takes away our incomes, and it violates the human right of men. Why do you insists on criminalizing any consenting adults as it has nothing to do with trafficking.

It's not violating the rights of men

Stop pretending this is about human rights. It's about money.

it violates the human right of men

I was so impressed by Moran. Like Beachcomber wrote, it's amazing she could do this, she even said it herself. It's like a victim of war and torture describing what happened to her to a group of people who look like the enemy side, who you don't know if they're your ally or not.

Buying sex isn't a human right any more than buying organs or buying children is.

I hope someone, somewhere from AI is finally having that duhhhh moment

"Not being able to buy sex is violating the human rights of men"

"Not being able to buy sex is violating the human rights of men"

Utter rubbish

I suspect that "BellaRobinson" is just some misogynist randomized spambot.

"Not being able to buy sex is violating the human rights of men"

This is what all the pimps and punters will pick up and run with if Amnesty International supports decriminalization.

Enough of them actually think it already in their male entitled world view. The last thing we need is a human rights organisation legitimizing that.

I urge everyone to read the link posted by Chazzer

Especially Amnesty ...

I don't think anyone is denying victims of trafficking (for both sex and non-sex labour) exist. They are out there and they do need help but I suspect it isn't on the massive scale some sources make it out to be. And IMO I don't believe criminalizing all clients by default and spending resources trying to track and hunt down what consenting adults get up to in hotel rooms is going to help the trafficked victims.

And before anyone wonders no Laura isn't a pimp and doesn't own any agencies. (And to clarify Douglas Fox doesn't own an agency either, it's his partner who owns one.) Laura is currently an escort but she has worked in brothels in the past.

And as she said on her blog page in Dublin the sex worker community was very small and the sex workers all knew each other and looked out for each other. Yet noone is able to remember Moran?

I suspect that "BellaRobinson" is just some misogynist randomized spambot.

Comments like this don't help anyone.

"Stop pretending this is about human rights. It's about money."

Considering the funding some of the "abolitionist" groups get one could suggest it is about money.

sexwork.ie/2013/12/10/atlantic-philanthropies/

Sauce sadly I think AI were there defending the 'right' of men to fuck women. They were speaking against adoption of the Nordic model I believe (unless I have got my wires crossed) hence why this 'consultation' is a little odd.

rhino I don't click on pimp links so I don't know what info is in there. One thing is certain, abolitionist groups are not funded by pimps so it's hard for you to cast any stones at the funders. Pimp funding is the lowest of all possible lows so I'm always when pimp mouthpieces bring this up.

Btw, I'm going to put your opinion of which comments are helpful and which are not in my DGAF File.

Laura Lee apparently has never come across a trafficked or coerced woman despite acknowledging that they are out there so I'm not giving much credence to her statements of whether someone else was in prostitution 20 years ago. Based on what she said at NIA, she doesn't seem to be able to keep a consistent viewpoint for very long.

Bella criminalising pimps and punters won't make it more dangerous to women in prostitution. That's absurd.

Also, sex is not a human right nor a human need. No-one ever died from lack of it.

Of course prostitution and trafficking are linked. Women are currently trafficked to meet the demand from men and if it is decriminalised or legalised higher demand will lead to more trafficking.

Laura Lee apparently has never come across a trafficked or coerced woman in 20+ years of experience. IMO that says a lot.

Is it really necessary to use the word "pimp" to automatically describe everyone on the other side of the debate? You wouldn't want to end up being accused of libel if you go around calling people pimps who really aren't.

Here's a copy and paste from that link. These are "Nordic model" supporters and the funding they have been given.

AkiDwA $928,326.00
Barnardos $14,452,353.00
Children’s Rights Alliance $3,163,788.00
Dominican Justice Office $50,340.00
Doras Luimní $2,137,975.00
Dublin Rape Crisis Centre $177,965.00
Focus Ireland $290,850.00
FOMACS (Forum on Migration and Communications) $2,077,635.00
Immigrant Council of Ireland $5,903,868.00
Nasc, the Irish Immigrant Support Centre $1,934,789.00
National Women’s Council of Ireland $2,177,428.00
Rape Crisis Network Ireland $738,304.00
The Integration Centre $6,246,032.00
Women’s Aid $430,840.00