Does anyone fancy going a bit Stepford with me?

[BEAUTlFUL]

I regret that title now! but will carry on regardless...

Basically, I have recently read a marriage book called "Fascinating Womanhood" by helen Andelin, written in the 1960's, and am starting to practise it in my marriage. It involves a lot of work, but good work, IYKWIM, accepting DH, admiring him, appreciating his efforts, listening to him, being a "domestic goddess", taking over childcare completely, settling him with a drink when he comes home, etc.

I'm LOVING it and actually weirdly feel a lot happier and more confident since I started it! I know it's not going to be popular with many of you, but is there anyone out there who fancies trying it out?

We could do it like a sort of bookclub, and follow the assignments every week. It promises to make your DH absolutely gaga in love again, v attentive, romantic, etc.

But more than that, it really teaches you acceptance, so if they're not being perfect, it really doesn't get to you as much. Or at all.

I know it'll get scoffed at, but I don't care really!

Anyone? It's hard work, but I'm convinced it's worth it as after just 3 weeks, DH and I feel so much closer, he is saying ILY all the time, we are laughing again, holding hands in bed, etc.

Even my mum has noticed. We went there for lunch and afterwards Mum rang up and said, "What's with you two? Your DH looks so happy and confident, and your body-language together was so 'united'!"

Also SGB, she is not keeping her dh happy primarily for his benefit.It is mostle for hers.

Oops, it's not actually a review of the book but here it is

"This book is fun. Karen Pryor begins her book with the sentence: "A reinforcer is anything that, occurring in conjunction with an act, tends to increase the probability that the act will occur again."

That's basically it. She explains the different strategies for changing behaviour in dolphins, dogs, cats and your fellow family members. The concepts can be a little difficult to grasp at first: shaping, clicker training and reinforcement, but read though the ideas carefully and it makes sense.

One of the best illustrations of positive reinforcement I heard in a speech. There was a man who had a farm and there was a public footpath running through it by a field where horses were grazing. People would feed the horses inappropriate things. He put up a notice, "Don't feed the horses". It didn't work. They left litter and continued to feed the horses. Then he put "Don't feed the horses because it creates litter and you will be fined". That didn't work either. Then he put, "We only eat apples and carrots". It worked. You have to be positive.

That's basically Mrs Pryors message and it's revolutionary in its application."

Thanks.Yes, quite.

I think there is a whole load of middle ground between being "stepford" and a shrew. If I feel he should be tidying the kitchen when I put the children to bed I just say "the kitchen is yours" with a big smile OK he grumbles a bit but I come back to a clean kitchen.

Sometimes he hoovers and says "ive hoovered for you" I always point out that its not for me but for all of us.

If I worked full time then he would be doing 50% of child related/home related chores (or they wouldnt get done)

I'd rather keep the money and pay someone £5.73 an hour to stroke my head.

It would cost more than that though Colditz....

I am reminded of "Men are From Mars etc."

I was having problems with my last boss (a man) and a friend recommended that I read it. I was a bit but she told me she had employed some of the techniques to great effect with her male boss.

Turns out, what you're supposed to do is continually massage the bloke's ego, to phrase sentences in such a way that they will not feel implied criticism - for eg, always say will you do something rather than can you do something, because the subtext of saying can you implies that they might not be able whereas with will they are generously agreeing to help you out .

it's helpful to stop thinking about it as a man/woman battle aND MORE AS TREATING SOMEONE A IN A CONSIDERATE FASHION. There are always two sides to every argument.Very few men are total pigs. All those slagging off their dhs on here are not i am sure, blameless themselves.

You know, I don't think she is mad
I think that if your role within the partnership is staying at home and bringing up the children it is as important that you do that well as it is that your DH does his job well.
I don't see me giving DH his slippers and a drink when he comes in - however I do aim to be the best Stay at Home Mummy that I can be,

Also I think that she should be credited for giving a stuff about her marriage being in a pickle and instead of waiting for a miracle to happen she is actively trying something to keep it together, as with most things it may be that this is the start of the change in her marriage and it morphs into something that she and her DH are both happy with - surely that is better for her families happiness - and as long as she is happy with it then surely that is what matters.

I won't be joining you as I am a fully fledged FlyLady but Good luck to you!

Moondog: I c an see that it might work for the OP but she seemed to suggest that everyone else should do it, when there are better equally valid other ways of dealing with a lazy selfish man. Such as leaving him, or not getting involved with him in the first place, or not doing more than the bare minimum of housework and when he moans, telling him that he can clean if dust bothers him.

If you think that it's worth putting yourself in second place to keep your partner happy ie to you the benefits outweight the negatives, go ahead: but don't expect other people to see it the same way.

crumsy, this thread is pretty scary. I for one, beautiful, was interested to read what you said and would like to know what the bible book suggests about getting him to open up.

I don't think so at all SGB.
I wouldn't put up with any shit and I have married a wonderful wonderful man who more than pulls his weight with everything. I tell him that when he goes,I will write on his gravestone 'He dies with a teatowel in his hand'.

I am often surprised at how many women post on MN who seem to have got involved with appalling men,it has to be said.

I am merely pointing out that there are some other strategies which do work.

I do think how much this would work does depend on the type of man - you are never going to make a silk purse out of a sows ear are you

My hubby is naturally affectionate and supportive but like most people when you live together you tend to only notice the annoyances rather than appreciate good things. I dont think it hurts to try being verbally appreciative and see where it leads you - you dont have to turn into some simpering subservient wimp

"I am often surprised at how many women post on MN who seem to have got involved with appalling men,it has to be said" - ME TOO! I think some people are so desperate not to be alone that they settle for anything.

Don't know about celestial love but celestial diamonds would be all that was needed for me to act like this or maybe a new handbag and shoes but even then it would only last a couple of weeks!

Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, give and take on both sides and if you need to curtow to a man to get him to show you love and affection and open up to you you need to go to relate rather than wait on him hand and foot and absolve him of taking part in childcare and doing the washing up!

DH would hate me to be like this for him - he married an equal not a slave.

I am both surprised at how many women on MN seem to have got involved with appalling men, and also at how many women seem to think feminism and equality is all about aggression towards men.

Assertiveness is about getting what you want out of life. You absolutely do not need to resort to aggression as a matter of course in order to achieve this . I constantly tell DD (in front of DP) that if you give a man enough kisses, they all do exactly what you want . She practises on her brothers...

Well, this is a nicer place this morning! Hello lovelies.

Moondog, interesting what you said about applied behavioural principles.

My DH isn't lazy. Very hands-on Dad, did a lot of the housework anyway, and is amazing at looking after the DC and running house when I had to go away for work.

This I thought was interesting: The author mentions how much of the time a man is looking for admiration when he says something, and we miss that and say something accidentally annoying in reply, pushing him away without realising it.

EG, you know when men say, "I've washed the dishes", "I've hoovered", "I've fed the cat", etc? And we think, "YES? AND? I've done that a billion times since we married!"

He is actually looking for admiration when he tells us those things. So when we reply, "Did you? Well, aren't you brilliant. Look at that. Perfect!" we have given him what he wanted, and he feels happier and closer to us.

Why not? Doesn't hurt, does it?

Or, when he grumbles about money, he is often just looking for recognition and (again) admiration. She gives an example of a man going through the bills, saying, "It sure takes a lot of money to raise a family." Wife1 replies defensively, "It's not me spending it! I buy at Aldi and I haven't bought new clothes for years." this hurts his feelings - without realising, she is implying that he doesn't earn enough money.

Wife2 realises he is just looking for a bit of admiration so she replies, "Yes it does -- and aren't you doing a great job earning it!" and her DH glows with pride and feels happier.

I absolutely love it and am lapping it up.

My DP says he finds it unnerving when I'm being nice to him.

Thing is, while being nice to PEOPLE is a good way to make them be nice back, so much of this type of book/method/theory etc seems to depend so much on women servicing men, on men's egos being flattered, and that being The Way It Should Be. Where are all the books telling men that complementing their partners and doing their share of domestic work are good routes to a happy marriage? Why aren't men being fed propaganda about marriage being a partnership?
There isn;t much propaganda telling men that actually women really want to service them, and to keep a little woman happy a man needs to be lazy, selfish and arrogant because he has a penis and she doesn't. Wonder why that is.

What a lot of shit books like these spout.

We all like to be thanked for our hard work.

I'm at home ft atm, and when dh comes in, I tell him what I've done becasue I WANT PRAISE TOO.

Ffs, it's not rocket science. Which is just as well becasue that would be too much for my little female brain to cope with, wouldn't it?

Jesus fucking Christ, it's like feminism never bloody happened.

DO you know what life was like for our predecessors? It was shit; druggery and subjegation for all but a few.

God I am such a feisty woman honestly theres no way I am subservient to anyone (sorry chuckling at the idea)

I just think if he has read with the children but not put out the rubbish - it doesnt hurt to focus on the good rather than just the negative.

If you are pleasant and it makes his behaviour better too does it matter who was nice first?

If on the other hand you are nice and he is the kind of oaf who just takes advantage then I'd save your energy and perhaps re-think your taste in men.

On Sunday a very old girlfriend of mine, who lives in NY, dropped round for supper, unexpectedly.

My DP made supper for all of us while GF and I had a nice relaxing chat on the sofa over a glass of wine with some cashew nuts.

After supper he told us to go back to the sofa while he cleared up the kitchen and put the children to bed.

When DP has his long-lost friends over, I do the same for him.

I think we have an equal relationship. We often look after one another.

I can see why it's working for you, beautiful, of course a relationship improves if one party decides to be specially nice to the other, and really keep it up for a while. The wise mumsnetter who said marriage is a competition in generosity is spot on. However, the 50s ness is truly sinister. as many others have said, it's all about the woman taking that step and scenting the candles etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you deciding to change things, and it's clearly working, and that's great. I can understand how tiredness, lethargy and fed up ness can just create an unpleasant atmosphere, and it needs an injection of enthusiasm and love from one partner to fire up the whole thing occasionally. I just personally find it creepy that you can accept it within this 50s stepford framework. Wouldn't it be even more empowering and work even better if it really came from your own personal philosophy, whatever that is?

You work part time, you have your own career, you are also earning money for the family. So I hope your husband appreciates that. And I hope you spend time thinking about what you need and where your career could go once your younger son is at school.

great christ almighty
marriage is a partnership right? to me that doesn't mean massaging a bloke's ego and making sure his every need is met instantly

you work together, you look after eachothers' needs, you are considerate to eachother-when one of you is feeling overworked/stressed/shit the other partner tries to do more for them til things even out

it cuts BOTH ways surely

am sure everything would be jsut dandy in every home in the land if every woman rolled over and had a lovely drink and a pair of pre-warmed slippers waiting for their man when he got home

have to stop now as my blood pressure is rising

plus am at work LOLOLOLOLOL

scattercushion: here's what she says about getting him to open up. This is massivly abridged, it's a he-uge book.

"...When a man's pride is wounded, he tends to build a wall of reserve, to protect himself from the pain of further humiliation. This is called his wall of reserve.

"When a man's reserve is present, it prrsents a problem: On the one hand he has a continuing need for admiration... which builds his pride, makes him feel manly. Therefore he longs to confide his feelings, to reveal his noble deeds and secret dreams with the hope of receiving admiration. On the other hand he is reluctant to do so. Why? Because he fears the possibility of ridicule or indifference. this would diminish his feeling of masculine pride.

"Nothing is so frightening to a man as the fear of making a fool of himself. He therefore subdues the impulse to seek admiration. Nothing but absolute certainty that his ideas will be met with appreciation rather than contempt or indifference will induce him to throw off his armor of reserve and reveal to others the things that mean most to him. And even when he does, the slightest hint of misunderstanding or disrespect will shatter the illusion and drive him behind his wall of reserve again...

"occasionally a man will clam up and not talk at all... he climbs inside himself, pulls down the blinds, making it impossible to get next to him. This is common. the higher the calibre of man, the more he tends to draw into himself when his pride is hurt.

"In an ideal marriage, there should be no wall of reserve. A man should feel comfortable expressing himself without fear of humiliation, confident his conversation will be met with sincere respect. if you detect this reserve in your husband, take measures to eliminate it. If you don't, he may seek the company of another woman who can fill this important need in himself.

"How to break down his Wall of Reserve...

You can't say things like, "You're so quiet" or "Why don't you ever talk to me", etc. You have to...

1. Accept him. When you overlook his faults, he will feel more confident in confiding.

1. Don't belittle him... You will have to completely elimiate any belittling remarks or forms of indifference.

1. Admire him. Your generous and sincere admiration will do more than any measure to win his confidence and break down his wall of reserve.

1. Don't be critical of others... He must be assured his confidences will be met with an admiring interpretation and not a fault-finding one.

1. Appreciate the good in others... the more ability you manifest as a critic, the less inclined he'll be to expose himself to your criticism. see the best in everyone, etc

1. Hold confidences sacred... If you disclose the secrets of others, he will take it for granted that you will disclose his also.

"When his reserve seems to be disappearing and he begins to disclose things about himself to admire, don't imagine his reserve has disappeared altogether. Further eliminate it by following these 6 steps... If your first reaction is always appreciative, he will lay bare before you every ideal, hope and motive that stirs within him. Admiration is too important to him to deny himself, once he's had the full enjoyment of it."

"My DP says he finds it unnerving when I'm being nice to him."

That is very shocking.

What are families for if not to be nice to one another?