What sexist behaviour would be the most shocking if reversed?

[GrumpyOldNag]

I was thinking feminist thoughts to myself (as you do ), and I was thinking about how this belief that sexism doesn't exist anymore creates a huge backlash against anyone who speaks out against it, which in turn makes people who do in fact believe in equal rights for men and women try to distance themselves from feminism because it's perceived as crazy and unreasonable. The problem is that a lot of it is so ingrained in our culture and society that it is completely normalised, and the majority of people don't even notice it anymore.

So what would be the most obvious, outrageous sexist behaviour, if we swapped the genders? Would it be men being followed, harassed and intimidated in the street, or on the music channel men gyrating and grinding dressed increasingly revealing clothing while women are all fully clothed? Men dancing in the windows of the red light district, or the overwhelming majority of politicians and CEOs being female?

What in your opinion would bring about the most uproar if one day sexism suddenly switched genders?

Sorry if any part of this doesn't make sense, I had a beautifully written OP all typed out and then my iPad lost it all for no apparent reason...

A man follows his wife, goes through her phone, becomes enraged and abusive = unhinged.
A woman does the same = romantic.

That's not apologist, it's actually really unhelpful for women's mental health etc' is my point - we're meant to be so stalky and needy or we don't 'love enough'. And of course then men can laugh at us.

Oh... if people asked a father if he was 'ungrateful' after medical care made him well enough to father because he wanted to keep his job? Asking him 'how his wife coped' emotionally with him earning more in case it 'insulted' her?
People laughing because a woman did housework and calling it 'unnatural'?
Suggesting the marriage was unhappy and weird because of this.

Honestly, I think what would shock men the most would be suddenly being considered lesser in all walks of life - particularly in business.

A case of "That's a great point Ben, why don't we wait for one of the women to say it".

You can point out advertising, cat calling etc and any rational man has to acknowledge it as a problem, but they just seem completely oblivious to how much you can be ignored as a person just for lacking a penis.

When the percentage of men on screen in both speaking roles and in crowd scenes is 17%

I think so too, Callani.

"Rent Boy In Training" T-shirts are available in mainstream stores. A number of men protest about this, and are vilified as prudes for doing so.

Dr Dre releases an album which is really good. However, the press veer between speculating on his sexuality and deciding he's 'a munter', purely because he doesn't sing about sex all the time. Rhianna records an single called "Beat That Bastard" and nobody bats an eyelid; in fact it makes the top 10 and is regularly played on mainstream radio.

A board meeting takes place. A single man sits in it as the deputy head of Legal/ Finance/ Sales; he is casually told to take the minutes 'as he must be the admin here'. The women in the meeting see nothing unusual about this.

Lots of fair points being made, plus some dreadful oversimplifications. Here's the view from the other side:

Percentage of men on screen who hold a family or emotional situation together, with calm and experience = less than zero, in real life = around 50% *. Ditto for women perceived as incapable, irresponsible idiots.

Women being told with loud derision (usually in front of others) that their bodies are ugly and ridiculous. Men laughing when a female suffers an "intimate injury". In fact, any public derision that qualifies as DA is fine (unless my DV training was very, very wrong).
Females being excluded from: clubs, gyms, swimming pools, yoga classes, rambling groups, book clubs, charity events, etc.......... because they "make the men feel uncomfortable" by their very presence. Presumably because all women are likely to be sexual deviants.
Men going to work wearing totally inappropriate clothes and dangerously impractical shoes (of course, you may not suggest that you find this an issue). Women being forbidden from wearing whatever they wish, on pain of ridicule or formal compaint. Amount of men who constanly judge other guys on their looks and wardrobe = 95% Amount of men who bizarrely blame women for judging them on their looks 99%

A man commits a crime to support his family and is shown moral and judicial leniency.

Yes, i am a guy and genuinely want equality for all. However, my time as a SAHD and working for SureStart has really opened my eyes to the immense power and control a woman has, esp mothers. There are many things that truly disadvantage females in this world, however, us guys live a precarious life (esp when children come along) and have our own issues and battles to fight (parental rights or healthcare anyone??). Got to get back to cooking tea, not sure if this makes as much sense as i hoped. It's not meant to be confrontational, just trying to restore some balance. The truth to most arguments usually lies somewhere in the middle.

*my 'stats' btw

Guess who's the newbie? Try this reversal scenario instead...

"Percentage of women on screen who hold a family or emotional situation together, with calm and experience = less than zero, in real life = around 50% . Ditto for men perceived as incapable, irresponsible idiots."

Sigh.

I'd say welcome to FWR, but it would be insincere.

FYI, feminists disagree with adverts and TV programmes showing men as incompetent at housework and caring duties. Why wouldn't we?

"Women being told with loud derision (usually in front of others) that their bodies are ugly and ridiculous." YThats not a reverse situation. You think this doesn't happen at the moment? Just look at any mainstream media and magazines. Talk about having a male gaze.

And you are right. Can you imagine a world where women were excluded from groups because they intimidate men and make them feel uncomfortable? Seems ridiculous. Yet we have the opposite and that seems to be acceptable. One sex making the other sex fell uncomfortable. And not only that it appears that any intimidation felt is to be minimised down to 'uncomfortable' and these feelings are in fact the fault of the sex who feels uncomfortable and intimidated. How screwed up is that?

If you want equality perhaps look at why women feel intimidated by men. Why do men feel it necessary to assert their 'authority' on a group of women?

And why do men live a precarious life when children come along?

Btw parents don't have rights. Children do. Maybe that'swhy you think men lead a precarious life. Just a thought.

Hmmmm.

I think someone might have totally missed the whole point of the thread.

Ah well.

Men being excluded from clubs and societies where networks are created, business is done and major governmental decisions are made, because, well, they just wouldn't want to join them, would they?

Men being thought of as minority group, despite making up over half the population.

Oh look, yet again, instead of listening, truly listening, to what women face and trying to understand, a man is jumping in with an immediate "yesbutwhataboutthemen". Sigh.

Like this?

Great thread. I am only on page four.

It's shocking really.

Want to read it aloud to dd and all young girls so they do not grow up thinking it is the norm.

Oh thought of one: saying "here he goes again burning his pants" when a man mention anything about gender inequality.

Husband and wife having an argument. Woman storming off to the pub leaving the man to console children, cook dinner put them to bed etc.

Too many to address in one easy soundbite.

"Women being told with loud derision (usually in front of others) that their bodies are ugly and ridiculous." YThats not a reverse situation. You think this doesn't happen at the moment? Just look at any mainstream media and magazines. Talk about having a male gaze."

The mainstream media, as far as I can see, has a predominantly female commentary. It is so ironic that women delight in watching & reading about vacuous social trivia and judging their peers. I can absolutely see your point, but why do the 'sisters' do this? Male gaze?? women dress "for each other, not men" apparently. And ultimately, why do women feel they have to put themselves under so much pressure? It drives my wife (who is a well-rounded, feminine, beautiful women) to despair that she has to work with "plastic dolly birds" in a professional office environment.

I WILL accept that for every man who storms off to the pub, there is a woman somewhere being an hysterical, illogical, unreasonable tyrant. I worked for one such woman for several years, brilliant and awful iin equal measure.

Please engage with what men are saying in these discussions. Please don't automatically dismiss moderate men, who want to see the world change for the better for their daughters. There are plenty of neanderthal men who are such a problem, but believe me, I have seen many equally dreadful women too. I believe that men must change/concede/accept more than women, but try to understand the opposing views however 'wrong' they may seem to you. The good guys are baffled by this beligerence, the bad guys i suspect, are inclined to lash out. I am not putting any blame onto yourselves (can't speak for every man) but we both need to meet in the middle, put down our spears, and engage cooly and rationally.

I don't agree with several of the examples this thread has raised, but I always do my very best to respect these views and their posters. I am living in a predominantly female environment, have done for 10 years or so. I absolutely get what you are striving for, but you're going to have to accept that regularly I see good, honest men utterly destroyed by some established, accepted female behaviour. Boo hoo "what about the men?" you say? Well how about "what about the women"? and around and around it goes....

Oh dear. Too tired to engage properly, so will just add graphics

These make you think

Male superheroes

and more

and a few more

"women delight in watching & reading about vacuous social trivia and judging their peers"

"despair that she has to work with "plastic dolly birds" "

"woman somewhere being an hysterical, illogical, unreasonable tyrant"

This is you being one of the good guys? This is you meeting in the middle and laying down spears?

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

The fact that if your wife worked with a man who was very conventionally groomed and took a lot of time o er his clothes, she/you would not be describing him as a toy (Dolly) or animal (bird). Men can be clever and choose conventional looks.
Women have to signal they are middle class and intelligent by looking "feminist".

God forbid a tanned blonde with large breasts be clever and not signal this by dressing in a certain way lest someone ogles her!

TBH "dolly bird" is both sexist and classiest.

But what would I know? I have brassy red hair and glittery nail extensions, and am thus both irritating and offensive to respectable women who dress to ensure men know they are none threateningly asexual and therefore intelligent.
Women have told me 'helpfully' similar messages to the dolly bird one. Often leading to embarrassment when it turned out I was the manager they had come to work for.
Because sexist culture can become the norm in terms of expectation for both genders... I've made a point of not submitting to the M&S suit mafia.

Excuse the terrible auto corrects.

O er - over
Classiest - classist

Why oh why don't some people understand that most feminists want the stupid, belittling media about men to end as well.

My contribution: Men would get pregnant, give birth, whether penally or by CS and the MOST important thing about their body, rather than incontinence, pain, changes, recovery, would be whether they could get back to perky awesomeness quickly. Well, George Clooney got back his pre-baby body in six weeks after all.

Rolls eyes, gives up and goes to bed.

Wanders back in in dressing gown to make the freakin' obvious point that we're hardly likely to want to engage with yet another man telling us that we're Doing Feminism Wrong and should Listen To The Person With the Penis if we ever want to be Taken Seriously.

Now now, Annie, one mustn't be belligerent.

Although use of terms like "testerical" would apparently not be belligerent...