City lawyers - I am about to become one of you. Please advise me!

[InGloriousTechnicolor]

I've just finished the LPC and am about to start my training contract at a commercial firm in the City (think top 25 but not Magic Circle). It would be great to get some advice from City lawyers, especially women, as I don't have any lawyer friends to ask about this stuff.

Basically, if you could go back in time and advise your trainee self, what would you say? (although please don't say 'Run like the wind' because I've signed a contract and it's too late for that!)

Yup!

The first step in NQ selection is working out the numbers we need, which depends on how busy we are. It's an obvious point but very often I've seen trainees set their heart on a quiet department. You might still get the job but only if you are considered exceptional. Try to judge that.

There can be quite a gap between your time in our department and the decision making process. Those who are freshest in our minds are definitely at an advantage.

It's also true generally that the second years know their arses from their elbows are better/more commercial/less green than the first years - just as a result of experience.

So, if you have any say about the order/choice of seat, try to organise them so that your preferred area comes later in the day.

If you want to go back to a department you saw at an early stage, make sure you keep in touch - even if it's just with the junior members of staff, it will keep you in the collective consciousness. Also, make an effort to go to social events and use them to catch up with your favourite people .

It cuts both ways: if a department keeps trying to send work your way after you have moved on, it is a good sign.

All partners in our team get to have a say in who we recruit, and we'll take a steer from the assistants too. So if you underperform for someone, go out of your way to make sure that the next piece of work you do for them is stellar, so that they won't torpedo an otherwise positive discussion about you.

It's a good job I'm not a City trainee as I'm on mat leave during my TC! Though I'm an older, career change, trainee and couldn't wait any longer before starting a family.

Thankfully my Training Principal has been fine about it and seems to really rate me, so I'm not worried about sabotaging my career.

I'm taking almost 7 months off as that takes me to the beginning of next year, which is a nice neat return date.

Good luck with your career. :-)

While we're sharing trainee dos and don'ts, I already know one: when on a vac scheme, don't go out and get rollocksed, then turn up at 11am the next day smelling like a pissed seaside donkey and vomit on the partner's shoes.

Also overt racism in the office is best avoided

(by 2 particularly outstanding candidates at one vac scheme I was on)

lurker - wow. Just wow.

I'm 3PQE at a City firm, though I had my DC before I qualified. My best friend had her DS 1 year into her TC, 10 months off (return timed to fit with Sept rather than because she wanted 10 months off) and then finished TC. Her mat leave hasn't caused her any problem but she does regularly work weekends and to 10pm on weekdays.

There's lots of good advice on this thread. I can only add: keep your head down at the start. When you start a seat it usually takes at least 2 months to work out WTF you're doing, never mind who the real power players you should please are. So on that learning period, don't draw attention to yourself for the wrong reasons. Be intelligent and willing, do not whine about your hours, however bad they are.

Also, dress properly, bearing in mind that you will be in a conservative environment with often quite sexist views around you - and the other women can be the worst. I've been amazed at what some trainees will wear to work, and it's always those ones that don't get kept on. Stripper heels/see-through tops are not ok. Keep it low-key and conservative, at least until you know they think you're fantastic. Bottom line: you do not want to be "that trainee with the massive tits/ banging body/fat arse". You want to be "that really good trainee".

And good luck!

Oh and however drunk you get with your clients, they aren't your friends. Don't bitch about your colleagues to them, especially not your partners (we are paying a fortune for your advice because we like the partner) and please, don't get drunk enough to be maudlin and whine about personal lives etc until you really are friends.

We're not interested. We do those drink things for the same reason as you - networking and free drinks that we know that somehow we will be paying for

We've had:

• idiot trainee asking me how to stuff an envelope
• a trainee reversed her car into our head of department's, then drove off without fessing up because she thought no-one was looking: wrong!
• trainee who was sent urgently to get a copy of a document mid-hearing because the judge wanted it, disappeared for an hour. He had "gone to get a bun".
• trainee DOODLING on client's original deeds which then had to be returned to the client.

God there must be LOADS more.

That said through these boring meetings there is a lawyer that I do consider a friend. One of about 20 that we use :o

Excellent thread. This is great career advice for anyone setting out on a corporate career.

Oh lurker - I loved your post in a sort of gleefully horrified way!

My face was like at those six things the trainee did!

xenia would have some great advice but I haven't seen her around for ages.

I have already been warned about letchy partners (not at my firm, but in general). Are these generally an issue?? If so, what to do (obviously not sleep with them)?

Avoid the letchy partners. Or make them your friend by imparting some detail about your life which makes it totally impossible for you ever to be together (clue: "I have a DP" will not be seen as a good enough reason, though "I am very religious and don't believe in sex before marriage" may be acceptable) whilst still remaining friendly. I have a friendly partner at work (not one I work for, but a senior one) whom I've deterred in this manner, and now he just tells me loads of partnership gossip all the time, which is sometimes quite useful.

I would be amazed if you come across any lecherous partners or other colleagues. I've worked at an MC firm for nearly 10 years now (including two quite short maternity leaves) and the vast majority of people are hard working professionals who would not risk their reputation and career for an office fumble. I think this should be low on your list of worries.

OK cool, thanks HandMini - it was just something I'd been warned about.

Not generally an issue at all, no. My male colleagues tend to fall into two categories (a) charming gentlemen; or (b) grumpy/awkward old bastards. Fortunately there aren't many of the latter. Oh, and a couple of bonkers ones.

We have one letch - not a partner but well connected to a big client. He's regarded as a liability, and his behaviour has been squashed but equally he has got away with murder, frankly, because of his connections - yuk. It's been a long time since there was an issue but we'd act on it pretty quickly - albeit it ends in a reprimand rather than him being sacked.

My tip would be to find a friendly female assistant to speak to and she can guide you through the politics, but don't be too afraid to speak up - firms are increasingly professional and find this behaviour very distasteful.

Agree re lecherous partners. Would have been a worry maybe 20 years ago, but not now.

I trained at a magic circle, stayed for 8 years, moved into different role still in the law. My advice:

1. Accept that you know practically nothing. They will teach you what you need to know. Learn learn learn.

1. You may be have been a golden child at school, Oxbridge, clever, attractive... But there is no place for arrogance. It will be spotted at 100 paces and people don't like it. Confidence good arrogance bad. A bit of humility goes a long way.

1. Keep your cleavage and your thighs covered. I'm sure you will.

1. Learn to draft. In plain English. Never ever ever use archaic legalese - if you ever use the word "herewith" consider yourself a failure. Keep sentences short, to the point and in the active voice, check every definition for clarity and (my particular bugbear) circularity and ensure whatever you draft can be understood by a reasonably intelligent layperson. Because that's probably a good description of your client.

1. Never lose sight of the clients needs and goals. There is a reason they came to your firm for advice. That isn't so they could be given a list of all the problems and stumbling blocks in their way. Give them solutions. Get the deal done.

1. Write articles. Give client talks. Speak at conferences. You will learn much more that way than by reading articles, sitting in client briefings and attending conferences.

1. Be courteous to everybody. Do not date your clients. Do not date partners until you are full on qualified and established (and even then be careful). Date associates if you must - you will probably marry one if you aren't already married. Possibly even if you are.

1. Grammar. Spelling. They matter. Mistakes will be noticed. Check check check.

1. Enjoy!

Ha thanks Gherkins. I'm not sure what I'd do with an island!

Gosh. I definitely worked for some letcherous / extremely sexist partners. One particular incident that sticks in my mind is when, as an NQ, I was on a bus with one other female lawyer (about my stage), a number of male lawyers from our firm, and a large group of male clients, returning from corporate hospitality at a sporting event. One of the (exceedingly drunk) clients decided that it would be funny to ask me and the other female solicitor "where his lap dance was". He was then fully backed up by the letcherous and generally dreadful (but oddly successful) partner who had organised the trip, who loudly led the chants for "extras", informed all clients that this was why he'd brought us ect. Bloody awful. And the thing is that I did nothing really about this, my 24 year old self just assumed that this was all par for the course. If you come across these types I'd definitely advise stocking up on wisecracks and learning to give as good as you get.

Lechy partners exist. The managing partner of my MC firm went through young female associates like you wouldn't believe. He launched himself on me in the lift when I was a trainee and I said "get off! You must be joking!" And he was completely unabashed and said "I told [other partner] you wouldn't be a pushover ha ha ha ha!!". Unbelievable. Another corporate partner actually stalked me for years. Used to collect photos of me in his desk drawer and moan to people that I wouldn't go out with him. I was married and had never even worked with him, barely exchanged 2 words with him and for most of that time he was in an office in a different continent. I was married, he was married with young kids. Fucking creepy.

I work in the Marketing department of a law firm and my personal advice would be the following:

1. Learn client relationships management - how to cultivate and manage relationships ( many fee-earners don't so they get overlooked and not given the biggest clients)

2. When you have to attend training on systems etc. go to them and really listen and learn what you are being taught because it is these systems that will make your life easier - I have trained plenty of trainees on how to use templates/ systems etc and it annoys me they don't take it seriously until they need to do something at 6pm and expect me to stay behind to retrain them or worse fix their documents only for them to mess it up 30 minutes later.

3. IT skills - please please please if the firm offers word training go on it and go on the advanced course if they offer just learn how to use applications like word, excel properly it really does makes you more efficient

4. If Marketing tell you something isn't within brand guidelines etc. don't go off an ignore them and produce documents or graphics that are not brand compliant. Branding guidelines are there for a reason.