City lawyers - I am about to become one of you. Please advise me!

[InGloriousTechnicolor]

I've just finished the LPC and am about to start my training contract at a commercial firm in the City (think top 25 but not Magic Circle). It would be great to get some advice from City lawyers, especially women, as I don't have any lawyer friends to ask about this stuff.

Basically, if you could go back in time and advise your trainee self, what would you say? (although please don't say 'Run like the wind' because I've signed a contract and it's too late for that!)

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

Oh, one more.

Do not add all your new trainee friends as friends on Facebook.

There is a type of partner who loves gossip. It is best to know nothing and share nothing. It doesn't reflect well on you if you are the subject of it or you share it, even if a cheeky partner pushed you into it at 11pm.

[bico]

As someone who qualified more than two decades ago I would advise you to think of where you want to be in fifteen years time, personally rather than professionally.

It is easy to get sucked in to what are perceived to be the more glamorous areas of law which involve lots of foreign travel and interesting high profile work. It is fun to do that when you don't have family commitments. However it is next to impossible to do that when you do have a family unless you are happy to employ a live in nanny. Maybe you are but very few people I know have done so through choice. It is always because they are in an family inflexible specialty that makes it hard.

If I had my time again I would have picked a perhaps more mundane area of law safe in the knowledge that it was more flexible and more portable (I'm stuck in the City) than the area of law I chose.

Good luck. I am in awe of anyone who makes it from LPC to actually getting a training contract these days. In my day there were far fewer places to do the LPC (LSF in my day) and lots of choice re training contracts (articles).

[EldritchCleavage]

I'm not a City lawyer but work in a profession/suity job where I've worked alongside one or two over the years. My advice:

-outright lechs are rare, but beware the male senior colleagues who will have you trailing along as an entourage because you are young and pretty and therefore enhance their status, who are dismissive of you in front of others and will never actually give you any responsibility or chance to prove yourself (they do that for the male trainees). In my experience that type of man is depressingly common in a lot of professions, though less as time goes by, thank goodness. It is difficult to handle-I've been that woman, many years ago. You can only make sure: (i) you never play up to this (no hair twirling, simpering, dressing a bit too sexy or flashy), keep things cool and professional, rise above the slights; (ii) you network madly with more useful people; and (iii) you volunteer to do work and make very sure there is good work product from you that people can judge you on;

-don't assume anything about your colleagues. it may look like a very white, male-dominated, privately-educated and Oxbridge environment but you can't necessarily tell by looking what people's education, class backgrounds or sexuality is, nor what race their partners are etc. I've known many a trainee really offend people with assumptions, whether because they are v right-on and cynically assume we are all bigoted Establishment shits, or very right-wing and conservative and assume the black bloke over there only got in by some kind of positive discrimination;

-FIGHT YOUR CORNER, albeit politely, where your work and ideas are concerned. It is very irritating when a trainee comes up with something potentially promising then can't argue for it or explain the idea. If you can't do this for your colleagues, they will assume you won't be able to do it for clients. Prepare, take a risk. It is better to be wrong (understandably, and due to inexperience) than never to try, and never, seemingly, to think about the task in hand;

-what my father told me, when I started work: don't be afraid to show liking for people you genuinely get on with. It is possible, especially for women, to be so concerned about demeanour that you end up as a bit of an automaton. But provided it is authentic, you don't need to hide the fact you like people;

-keep in touch with professional bodies and associations, find a mentor.

The last solicitor I worked with has a trainee whose appearance is a little startling (hair extensions, a LOT of make-up, very tight clothes, mega heels). I don't care about that myself, though other clients certainly will, but coupled with the fact she literally NEVER did anything useful, not even help lug the files, nor come up with a single useful piece of info like a date we couldn't find, appear to know any details of the problem or even fetch anyone a coffee, I will be very surprised to see her again in future meetings.

Take heart from nightmare trainee stories. There are plenty of numpties out there who will thin out the numbers nicely, leaving a smaller field for you to compete with.

[JWIM]

OP I think you said DP did not work in the same 'arena'. Being a trainee at a City firm is very full on. Would be a good idea to make sure your DP is fully aware of the time demands.

Should you go on to have children and want to stay - being really sure of your childcare is key. Do not scrimp. I have colleagues who are constantly stressed by having to sort out domestic arrangements, some of their own making. I am amazed at those on six figure salaries who look for cheap childcare.

[lazarusb]

saffron I have to say that I've been a bit disappointed as I don't really want a TC in a large City firm but they are so few and far between in smaller, more local practices. I'd love to avoid the City if I can help it!

[HerBigChance]

I am not a lawyer (and I don't work in the City), but this thread is fascinating. It contains a lot of general common-sense advice that applies to a number of sectors of working life in general.

[something2say]

I agree, HerBigChance. A very interesting read. I am heartened by what I perceive as the high standards and genuine enjoyment of excellence as standard. I am less heartened by women having to make it OK that they are still judged for their gender. I refer to all of the horror stories about time off when you have a baby.

My employers give a year off, women regularly take all or some of it and they are offered part time roles when they return with no sense of discrimination, plus we then pay 80% of the childcare fees..... But then I work for a women's charity..

I feel like making a similar thread about the values and norms in my career, working with people. I am so pleased that we are encouraged to express our personal style at work. Granted this doesn't often stretch to stripper heels, but it will mean hair colours, styles, piercing s, eye makeup, nails of colour, lovely jewellery and a general expression of one's values, with the idea that you are on the outside who you are on the inside. Or perhaps that is the whole point!!!

Anyway lovely to read about the values in this industry. I was once hauled over the coals by a horrible MC lawyer at a dinner party. I am now a hippy and don't go to dinner parties. Haha!! (I should shut up now in front of all of the lawyers!!)

[Thesunalwayshinesontv]

something - I am an ex-MC (and subsequently in-house) lawyer. Looking back, the main thing I miss about being in that world is the standard of excellence that the vast majority of people I worked with held themselves to. This applied as much to fee-earners as it did to support staff (secretaries, typists, print room guys, canteen staff, delivery guys - everyone). This is now part of my professional DNA. For that alone, I would recommend an early career in a MC law firm to anyone setting out in the world of work.

[something2say]

Hello the sun always shines.....yes excellence is pleasing to work amongst, and also inspiring I think. I work for a charity and we have to be very tight with what we do, and we work with all sorts of other agencies and they are nice and tight as well. It has made me improve. Before that I had a job in the corporate sector... I always wanted to study law....you recommend it, but I grew to hate it because people feel able to argue one so and then change roles and argue the other. Where I work we stand by our beliefs really....but then I am raging femo and there's only really one position on that isn't there!

Gherkins that's lovely! I hope I meet one of you someday then, at the bottom of some secret garden or other!

[Curioustiger]

I have to say that I think this thread demonstrates a common misconception as to the 'problem' of maternity leave in professional jobs. There is an issue with women carrying more childcare responsibility and therefore becoming less attractive employees. However the problem is not about whether you take six months or twelve months mat leave, it's about how you are perceived on your return, in my experience (would be interested to know if others disagree). First of all I don't think there are many city jobs where there is a huge difference between the two options of six or twelve months... On a practical level, you have to hand over your clients to someone else for a while regardless. On the other hand, on return, someone who is obviously constrained by childcare arrangements, can't do the post work drinks or pull a very late night is going to find it harder to progress. So definitely there are still issues to address. Something2say, start your thread, it would be good to learn how other industries do a better job of keeping women engaged.

[dinkystinky]

Gherkins - my colleagues call me a hippy as I bf my boys until over 2, use slings and do blw... There are a fair few stealth lentilweavers in the law...

[something2say]

Tigerlilly there is no issue. We are all women! And we have all been there years!

[MyBoysAreFab]

A senior partner gave me advice years ago which I have never forgotten - the only things you really have to worry about are if you lose an original will or if you pay a beneficiary too much money in an executry, anything else can be resolved.
Lots of great advice here - agree with be humble, do anything thrown at you and do it well. Don't pretend you understand instructions passed to you if you don't - ask, ask, ask. Don't give a client advice unless you are certain it is correct. Keep in with your accounts department!

The same above senior partner drunkenly told me I had fabulous tits at a work do - he was subsequently mortified, as there is nothing lechey about him, still makes me snigger.

I now work in a really small town law firm, much nicer, sometimes I even wear jeans to work, I would hate to have to go back to the power-suited city firm days!

[ScottishDiblet]

I'm ex MC and my top tip (as the others have already been taken) is to learn how to proof read letter by letter word by word line by line. Use a finger on each word and make sure you not only check for spelling but also for sense. Good luck! It is a wonderful career and, although city law wasn't for me ultimately, it got me my current job which is literally my dream job in the law.

[Chubfuddler]

I BF both of my child until they were nearly 2, even though I went back to work full time when number 1 was 9 months. And co slept. In fact co sleeping bfing was the only way I could cope!

[BonaDea]

Don't snog or shag any other trainees or anyone else for that matter. Especially not a senior associate I did, and am now happily married with a DS to said senior associate who is now a partner and never comes home!!

[InGloriousTechnicolor]

Thanks so much for all this advice.

Something2say, totally take your point but I think you have to accept when you work in a certain type of law firm that it's simply not OK to take an hour for lunch, it's not OK to leave at 5 and it's not the sort of work that is easy to do part time, whichever sex you are. Them's the breaks. It's the same in sectors like finance. Of course, that is why the pay is higher than other types of work, because there are all these restrictions. I accept that. I am naturally fairly conservative in the way I dress and express myself, that atmosphere doesn't stifle me as I am used to it from school and to some extent university.

I have always had high standards for myself in terms of academic results etc. and am very hard on myself if I don't reach them (even if no one else gives a shit, which is generally the case!)

I don't expect it to be easy but I do think I will enjoy it a lot.

[AmandaPandtheTantrumofDoom]

If you have high standards and are hard on yourself, also be aware of burn out.

Many lawyers are perfectionists. But sometimes you have to be realistic about what you can achieve in the time available and not beat yourself up. Not so much as a trainee, but as a qualified lawyer, sometimes you have to learn that good enough is good enough. High standards are great, but so is perspective.

[Fillyjonk75]

Thanks for this thread. I am 10 years qualified and about to go back to the city and there was a lot of stuff here I didn't know.

[Murtette]

I keep coming back to this thread as I'm finding everyone's thoughts fascinating. And am scribbling many of them down for when I do a presentation to the new trainees in early Sept.
A few more thoughts:

• I always told my trainees to put any weddings, their boyfriend's birthday, their parents' wedding anniversary and other significant events which they had to be out of the office for in my calendar and make sure that I got a reminder 24hrs before it happened. That way, I could always sort out the staffing on a deal so that the trainee made it to this event. I could not do this if they didn't tell me at all (obviously!) or I only found out about it 30 mins before the event was due to start and a colleague found them sobbing in the toilet;
  
• if you have to work a weekend then, depending on the circumstances, there may be some flexibility as to when you work. Obviously this won't apply if you're in all day Sat & Sun but, if, for example, we were expecting a doc late on Friday evening & I was going to review it on Saturday & put it into typing & had asked you to proof it then, if the other side weren't expecting it until Monday morning, it wouldn't actually matter if you did the work on Sat evening, Sun morning or Sun afternoon so you could fit it in around your plans
  
• if you're asked to do a task and told how to do it, do it that way, especially if you're up against a concrete deadline. You may think you have a better way of doing it but I will have a reason (usually, simply experience) for asking you to do it a particular way. One of my previous trainees did not get offered an NQ job as always did it his own way meaning which missed some important deadlines
  
• if you wear contact lenses and they're the sort that can only be worn for X number of hours, make sure you have your glasses in the office. If you've forgotten them, tell your supervisor and go home/send a taxi to get them. Again, I had a trainee who wore her contact lenses for 27 hours, got an eye infection and had to have a week off all because she never told me or anyone else that she needed to go home & get her glasses. Likewise, if you're on the type of pill that has to be taken at pretty much the same time every day, keep them in your handbag so you don't risk missing one. My DD is the result of me doing too many all nighters in one month and being a bit slap dash with exactly when I was taking the pill!
  
• find out who the office gossip is. Be careful of what you tell them as they will tell everyone else. Realise that what they are telling you may not be the exact truth. Also find out who the font of all information is. This person is different to the gossip. They know all the gossip but never gossip themselves although will occasionally impart a very important and relevant piece of information.
  
• don't chose your seats/the department you qualify into on the basis of the people in it but on the basis of the underlying work. People change firms frequently and, by the time you're 1yr PQE, the people who were in that dept when you were in your 2nd seat may be very different
  
• this is a careful line to tread and one you probably won't be able to do for a couple of years but if there's something on a deal which completely doesn't make sense, question it. And if the answer doesn't make sense, question it again. When I was about 2yr PQE, I was brought into a deal late on and couldn't understand something. Asked the 2yr PQE in the lead department who explained it in a way which didn't satisfy me; asked the 4yr PQE & still didn't get it so eventually raised it with the partner who I knew had only had about 8 hours sleep that week (it was now Thursday evening) and was very senior when I was very new to the firm - yes, I had picked up a whole but the others had been so used to it that they couldn't quite accept it wasn't covered. I have done this three or four times since and have also had it done to me.
  
• if someone has given you instructions which don't make sense to you, it may be that they simply don't make sense rather than due to your ignorance. I'd often go back to my supervisor or the partner & say we now have to do X and they'd go "what are you talking about". I hadn't queried it as I'd assumed that if you knew more about the deal or something it would all become clear.

[BonaDea]

On a more serious note, I honesty used to hate the really brown nosed trainees who were pushy know it alls. You have your TC now so concentrate on working hard and building relationships at the firm, rather than proving how much better than everyone else you are! I know the partners in my team took 'fit with colleagues and clients' just as serious as academic ability.

[BonaDea]

*seriously (attention to detail also important!!)