What do you think about spouses/partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

The organisation Birthrights (with whom we've done some stuff in the past) are planning a new campaign called First Night, and wanted to know whether it's something MN could support - so we said we'd ask you lot!

Here's Birthrights' description of the campaign:

'Birthrights is a human rights in childbirth charity, and we will be launching a campaign later this year to ensure women aren't left alone on often over-staffed postnatal wards, but instead can choose to have their partner remain with them overnight. We will be researching what's important to women, partners and staff, the barriers and benefits, and working with units who've implemented this policy to draw up best practice guidelines to use as they lobby for change.'

So please let us know what you think. Is this something you'd like us to swing behind?

Thanks
MNHQ

Reading through the response just now, the trouble is that many individual women will want their partners with them. However, for every woman in a bay of 6 beds, there will be 5 vulnerable women who do not want that woman's partner there. And that woman will not want those other 5 women's partners there.

I would fully support a campaign to increase the number of family rooms for women in exceptional circumstances. I would fully support a campaign to drastically improve the post-natal care of women and their babies in hospital by increasing the number of HCPs on the ward day and night. I will actively petition against a general policy of allowing partners to stay overnight on postnatal wards and I will be absolutely furious if MN supports such a campaign.

We do think though that this initiative may have the potential to offer women support from their loved ones in addition to better postnatal services

Birthright - So despite the acknowledgement that the "research" you have used is "insufficient" (seriously lacking in objectivity / credibility and accuracy I would have said) you will be continuing to promote this idea?
That's why you are being challenged about who you are, who funds you and how much influence you have.
You call yourselves (self?) a "women's rights organisation" I'm afraid this idea is very far from being a women's rights issue - it's a father's rights issue and an extension of the "I want and am entitled to at the expense of everyone else " issue.

I am truly horrified to hear you talk about this being rolled "in a growing number of units" followed by your breathtakingly naive statement that "always planned, and now thanks to you of utmost import, will be safeguarding issues, looking at how to create private spaces and addressing potential concerns about domestic abuse".

Promoting the safety of women and children, ensuring a woman's right to privacy and preventing abuse should be, and is, at at the heart of ALL women's rights organisations and the fact that this 'project' of yours has got so far with barely a mention or understanding of these issues speaks volumes.
I'm afraid the more that you say, the more sceptical I am about your credibility as a "women's rights organisation".

It gives me no pleasure to say that I see this campaign and therefore the organisation promoting it as downright dangerous.

Birthright aren't planning to change this to campaign for better staffing cover on the wards then? Still partners instead of medical professionals?Good grief.

Good grief indeed.

So all this, was just to give Birthright a better angle to push ahead , able to answer questions and critical voices more persuasively and eloquently?

MNHQ, I hope you get a massive fee for these "introductory thoughts", they are providing this misguided group, with the correct strategy to push something really stupid forward in a seemingly more thought-through manner.

Why on earth put forward partners rather than good maternity care?
Birthright, I will save you some work, hook up with Fathers for Justice, seems like a good match.

Exactly AndHarry.

Of course I would have loved to have my DH stay with me. I know he would have tried his best to be considerate of other mums and quiet. However I also know he is a 6ft+ man of broad build and would have been a massive physical obstacle for staff to have on the ward, and he could very well have seemed intimidating to other mums because of his size and build.

That's why it's a stupid campaign.

Perhaps they need to do a web q and a about this. They are in danger of losing public support in general for their orgsnisation

And please don't think that just conducting an audit will do. You need a carefully matched control and do a proper trial.

Well said cardamomginger

Most midwife led unit near me have private rooms and double beds and allow partners to stay until discharge. That works well. On postnatal wards, a lot of hospitals have side rooms meant for 2 already have 4 beds squished in so there isn't the room. This would be brilliant with more space and more side rooms. An issue for in town hospitals but for hospitals outside of towns they always make the rooms as small as possible when there is loads of space!
A disabled friend would need her partner overnight to help but he can only do that if there are private rooms available which won't be garunteed leaves her unable to pick up the baby afterwards depending on how she is and isn't convinced will get the help she needs

Bad idea.

Of course we'd all want our spouses to stay, but I don't think it's practical or feasible, on many different levels.

Two of the fathers visiting women in my ward after I had DD squared up to each other. Both were waiting for midwives and one took offense when the midwife went to the other woman first. It was absolutely fucking terrifying and the icing on the cake of a bloody awful unsupported postnatal stay.

The woman next to me who had been in for a week told me they had found a visitor shooting up in the ward toilets the previous week. Big inner city hospital in a very deprived area.

I would have loved DH to stay, it probably would have made the difference in the level of mental illness I suffered after DDs birth. But not if that meant allowing people like that to stay as well.

But I would above all want better post natal care and more staff, that would have been better even than DH staying.

No, we don't charge charities for this kind of canvassing thread when we're asking whether we should support a campaign - agree that this one has provided some extremely thorough feedback but not many of the other threads attract anything like the same response!

Birthrights' post does say that they're NOT necessarily going to press ahead with this: as they say, 'If they are not working for women we really need to know... if we discover through this research that these policies are making things worse not better for women we will report those findings and of course will not pursue our campaign. We can then use this research to inform trusts considering implementing this policy... We don't think we should abandon this entirely partly because if it is a really dreadful idea we need the research to back this up so that Trusts don't continue to implement this and partly because we have has such a call to action from women on this issue outside of this thread.'

Just thought that was worth reiterating!

I think it's quite a nice idea in theory but, as others have said, would create more work in an already overstretched service and is fraught with potential problems around managing fallout in those relationships that are abusive or somehow troubled. I'm also not sure I agree that precious NHS funding should be diverted to enable new families to be together after the safe delivery of a baby, where both mother and baby are essentially healthy and well and will be home within a few days. I think this would be cutting the cake very generously and putting posh icing on it in favour those who are not in the greatest need within the Nhs or society as a whole. I think that when we're talking about scarce resources priority should be based on medical and sometimes social need. Yes, yes, yes to a good slice of cake to first class, safe maternity services for all mothers and babies but reserve lots and lots of cake for the treatment and care of those who are seriously ill and divert any unexpected funds for any posh icing for them too.

Comrade that's a good point. I'm currently waiting for a specialist appointment. How many of those could this fluffy idea of having partners stay for the first night fund? Especially when most mothers who have normal births go home within a couple of days.

I do, however, think that there should be enough nurses and midwives that mother's aren't left feeling abandoned and alone.

Rowan,
The trouble is this is something that Birthright ARE actively currently campaigning and promoting (and using a crap piece of research as evidence). If it was 'on the drawing board' then I'd be less worried but it's not. They have speakers at their conferences, they have the research on their website, it reads as if they are actively consulting (and advising?) trusts about this.
And it's being rolled out......

.

So so sad.

most mothers who have normal births go home within a couple of days.

I think you'll find most mothers who have a straightforward birth without complications for them or the baby go home within hours of delivery. Therefore it is not unreasonable to extrapolate that those who are staying in need more medical care... otherwise why are they there? Unless it is one of those mythical wards where there is a breastfeeding counsellor available and a friendly health care assistant who will look after you and baby rather than the reality of a boiling hot, noisy room where someone might put their head round your curtain every couple of hours :(

@sarine1

Rowan, The trouble is this is something that Birthright ARE actively currently campaigning and promoting (and using a crap piece of research as evidence). If it was 'on the drawing board' then I'd be less worried but it's not. They have speakers at their conferences, they have the research on their website, it reads as if they are actively consulting (and advising?) trusts about this. And it's being rolled out......

Thanks Sarine. To be fair this thread is about 24 hours old and that's not really enough time, realistically, for Birthrights to reformulate a policy and change related comms. We see no reason not to take in good faith their assurance that they will look at this carefully and change tack if need be, though.

On another tip (not related to you Sarine) - we'd be really grateful if posters could hold off implying that the Birthrights board and staff are personally dishonest. We think that's a bit out of order to be frank.

yy Rowan. I also find the Fathers for Justice stuff in poor taste too.

I've said below why I think that this policy is a bad idea. But I'd like to stand up for the charity itself too. I respect Birthrights and the women behind it. We can all make mistakes.

Slightly tangential, but having read that Captured Womb page, it's very clear that the Birthrights women haven't done the reading re feminism and they know very little about it.

Feminism has a fuck of a lot to say about maternity rights and motherhood but Birthright has only heard "a resounding silence". Well perhaps they're not listening in the right places? Like everyone else, they're buying the version of feminism the male-led media is selling us and they're not actually listening to feminists.

If they're a woman's rights organisation, they really should know a little bit more about what the people they assume are engaging with women's rights are saying, rather than just assuming what the media says feminists are saying is correct.

And I would have expected them to have done some basic liaison work with women's rights organisations on the front line like Women's Aid, Refuge, Southall Black Sisters etc.

A little bit Feminism 101, but really. Speak to other women. Listen to women's voices instead of the voices filtered through malestream media.

Rowan - if it was my post you were referring to re board/staff, I certainly didn't mean to imply that they were dishonest. Sorry!! I can see how it could have read that way though.

What I mean is that (from my experience working in a policy-based human rights NGO), where there is a decision made at the top to continue with a campaign, despite numerous shortcomings having been identified, a gilded picture is often painted to policy-makers and legislators about the campaign. It's not being dishonest, it's just the staff doing their best with what they've been instructed to do by the boss .

Obviously 24 hours is too short a time frame for them to scrap/completely change their campaign.

But it is a worry that their public documents, website and events planned make it seem like it's a campaign that's almost certainly going ahead, rather than a tentative exploration. As other posters have noted, some larger-scale independent research needs to be carried out by Birthrights. It doesn't inspire confidence (among the general public and funders) that this wasn't done at the outset.

@Zara8

Rowan - if it was my post you were referring to re board/staff, I certainly didn't mean to imply that they were dishonest. Sorry!! I can see how it could have read that way though.

What I mean is that (from my experience working in a policy-based human rights NGO), where there is a decision made at the top to continue with a campaign, despite numerous shortcomings having been identified, a gilded picture is often painted to policy-makers and legislators about the campaign. It's not being dishonest, it's just the staff doing their best with what they've been instructed to do by the boss .

Obviously 24 hours is too short a time frame for them to scrap/completely change their campaign.

But it is a worry that their public documents, website and events planned make it seem like it's a campaign that's almost certainly going ahead, rather than a tentative exploration. As other posters have noted, some larger-scale independent research needs to be carried out by Birthrights. It doesn't inspire confidence (among the general public and funders) that this wasn't done at the outset.

Thanks Zara. Can only reiterate (and realise that I'm sounding like their press officer here!) that they have very clearly said they are NOT necessarily going to go ahead. In a way (as you'll know if you work in a campaigning organisation) making a statement like that even after you've plainly done a lot of campaigns groundwork and published related material on your site is rather unusual and brave.

I'd never felt more alone than after going through an exhausting labour to then be basically left with the sole care of a newborn. Despite being shattered, I couldn't sleep a wink that first night and felt almost angry at my husband for sloping off home to sleep. So yes, for me I would have absolutely welcomed the moral and physical support of my partner. With the 2nd one not so much, but 1st time round it was incredibly daunting.