What do you think about spouses/partners staying overnight on postnatal wards?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

The organisation Birthrights (with whom we've done some stuff in the past) are planning a new campaign called First Night, and wanted to know whether it's something MN could support - so we said we'd ask you lot!

Here's Birthrights' description of the campaign:

'Birthrights is a human rights in childbirth charity, and we will be launching a campaign later this year to ensure women aren't left alone on often over-staffed postnatal wards, but instead can choose to have their partner remain with them overnight. We will be researching what's important to women, partners and staff, the barriers and benefits, and working with units who've implemented this policy to draw up best practice guidelines to use as they lobby for change.'

So please let us know what you think. Is this something you'd like us to swing behind?

Thanks
MNHQ

You also have to be wary of the wording when canvassing opinions. If you ask a woman "Would you like your partner to be able to stay with you overnight, after the birth of your baby" - Most likely the answer would be "yes".

The women on this thread are looking deeper - into the implications of having everyone else's partners around - in a ward designed for 6 - overnight.

The story about the new mum being kicked out of her hospital bed by her partner, so he could sleep is all too telling. Unfortunately, many women are in relationships with men who think their needs come first. I even read a story once where a new mum was forced by her partner to go into the toilet and have sex.

Their plans are to consult beyond Mumsnet, Itsfab. Pretty sure they have very fully taken on board that the MN response is very much a 'no', but we're not the only people they're talking to.

This is what I am afraid of.

I get the feeling that they [however well you know them at mumsnet] may well not stop this idea.

The question " would you like you husband to stay overnight? " would need to be balanced with " would you like everyone else's husband staying overnight?" . I think that would provide a bit more clarity about what women wanted and how they felt about their time spent on a ward full of new mothers.

You also have to be wary of the wording when canvassing opinions. If you ask a woman "Would you like your partner to be able to stay with you overnight, after the birth of your baby" - Most likely the answer would be "yes".

Very much agree with this too.
Also have the horrible sinking feeling that this is going to get pushed through.

Maybe because someone has agendas
Maybe because someone likes having the power.

All of this is not sitting right with me.

Would campaigning for better staffing on wards not be better than partners staying the night? Surely a partner is not a substitute for a medical professional. Are people really 'left alone' on a fully staffed medical ward any more than on any other medical ward?Every woman would need her own room for a start. The cost of building work alone for hospitals would be astronomical, can the nhs afford this I doubt it. Totally disagree with this campaign. I was in hospital for a month after I gave birth and I still don't agree with it. Bad bad bad idea. No no no. It's campaigning for the wrong thing, better maternity care- yes! Substitute maternity care with partners - no. Deluded nonsense.

It's a 'no' from me.

Most reasons have been mentioned already: strangers on the ward; noise; the 'right' to be there.

I actually enjoyed some quiet time, just me and my baby, before I had to go home.

So if HQ have decided that the very high proportion of 'no' response is enough for them to say that Mumsnet won't support the campaign, is this thread going to be closed? Or allowed to run and run?

Because we're almost 700 responses in and I can't see opinions radically swinging in the other direction.

This doesn't sit right with me either setting.

Sorry I realise it is a small charity but they have research to hand that showed nearly 20% of mothers who didn;t have a partner were negatively impacted by the other women.

And they are of course going to get a good rating from the women who did have partners. And obviously their partners are going to be fine with it. And personally I think their preference shouldn't be take in to consideration at all, being that they aren't patients

(were their answers taken in confidence or do the partners know what they wrote, I missed that if it was in there)

It feels like the needs of women who haven't got a partner and will already have more issues to contend with on their own will be trampled on.

I know I'm being cynical - and I'm not accusing Birthright, I'm sure they have the best intentions - but this will be picked up by the men's rights groups. I'm fearful of this being pushed through - and it being all about the rights of fathers - rather than being about the best thing for the women giving birth.

It's worrying.

"By the morning I was the 'expert' in looking after dd1, and that was a dynamic which coloured our early months.

I think allowing partners to stay the night would be a comparatively easy change that would reduce the inherent sexism in our society."

I passed my driving test the day before DH. Amazingly this hasn't prevented him doing 50% of the driving to school, work, holidays...

Really hope mumsnet don't support this misguided csmpaign

@sarine1

Rowan, Agree that people should aim to be constructive but... if you're a campaigning organisation seeking to influence policy (which this organisation is) then it needs to be accepted that people will be highly critical if you come up with dangerous ideas which you are seeking to influence the NHS with. I don't have the influence that they have or seek to have - this is the only way I can emphasis what an anti-women / unsafe proposal this is. (and am horrified to hear that it appears to be being rolled out in some hospitals)

There's absolutely no problem with criticism - the thread just threatened to veer off into something a bit more personalised and slightly abusive at points, so we were just sticking our oar in to ask posters to bear in mind that there are real people behind this idea, who've worked long and hard to put things like women's choices and rights in childbirth on the agenda.

Having been on the wrong end of threads involving upset/cross MNers in the past, I can confirm that it can be surprisingly bruising and upsetting (even when you know you've well and truly cocked up something up ).

Someone mentioned suspending the thread given that we (MNHQ) have confirmed we won't be taking part in the campaign. It's not something we would normally do but we're happy to do it here if lots of you think it's the best course.

I'm another who doesn't agree with partners staying over.

However, I believe that hospitals should allow the mother to have any one adult she chooses with her during the "partners" visiting hours as my husband had to work but I had to beg for my mum to be allowed in for just a couple of hours (I was in for a week) just so I wasn't completely alone.

I think it would be even better if MN actively opposed this campaign, though I suspect that's unrealistic.

Another poster (Askbasil) has just made this point on the other thread:

• Already in the course of these threads, I've read about men doing the following:

• making shitty remarks to their partners undermining them and criticising them and making them feel shit at the most vulnerable moment of their lives
• wandering into someone else's bay while they're being examined to ask a question about their partner, with no concept of respecting women's personal boundaries
• demanding a blow job
• demanding the woman get out of bed and into the chair so he can sleep on the bed
• nicking the patient's coffee, tea, breakfast etc.
• talking loudly, disturbing patients
• watching TV, listening to radio etc., loudly, disturbing patients
• staring at women trying to establish breastfeeding, creeping them out
• yelling at HCPs
• assaulting HCP's
• bullying women apart from their partners who have just had babies *

I think it's really important that Birthright are aware of this before they push forward with this campaign.

If Birthright are genuinely reading and considering all the posts then I think the thread should be kept open.

"one adult she chooses with her during the "partners" visiting hours as my husband had to work but I had to beg for my mum to be allowed in for just a couple of hours "

I would support this.

@Heels99

Really hope mumsnet don't support this misguided csmpaign

We're not going to support it Heels99

"one adult she chooses with her during the "partners" visiting hours as my husband had to work but I had to beg for my mum to be allowed in for just a couple of hours "

I would also support this.

The thread should be left open - other MNers who gave not yet had the opportunity to express their opinions may like to do so.

Again said so many times but contributing to the "no"s - so many good reasons above. I found on my post-delivery ward that even having long daytime visiting hours was not that great.

mad idea coming -
The alternative answer to the problem of over-staffed wards is more staff -but realistically that's unlikely to happen. But has any research been done on what using some really basic technology could do? Like why are the call bells still just one buzzer and not a touch pad of common requests so that HCPs know what they are responding to - like people press for medical problems or they need a water refill or they would like another sheet. Then it could be directed to the right HCP and they sort it out without having to make two trips to the bedside to find out what's the matter first. Yes these things would need some investment, but surely they would be offset by less interventions and savings on staff time to do more medical stuff or just talk to new mothers.

I've sent this thread to the CEO of NCT because I suspect they will either be involved in the consultation or will want to take a view. Particularly in light of the rather dubious evidence being used to justify rolling this out.

I have a lot of time for the ideas and ideals behind Birth Rights so I do hope they will reconsider.

The question " would you like you husband to stay overnight? " would need to be balanced with " would you like everyone else's husband staying overnight?" . I think that would provide a bit more clarity about what women wanted and how they felt about their time spent on a ward full of new mothers.

As someone who used to campaign and fundraise and now teaches people how to decipher surveys... this is exactly what they will do. Phrase both surveys and feedback to give the answers they want. It's what campaigns do.

My hospital allowed it so DH did stay with me. I didn't move onto the ward until 1am anyway. The hospital was really busy and we were in an 'overflow' postnatal ward. My buzzer didn't work either so I needed DH to go fetch the midwives when I needed painkillers or assistance establishing feeding. I'd have hated for him to leave us.

Another response from Birthrights:

"Dear all
As MNHQ have said we have been actively reading and engaging with the thread and your concerns. Though the tone of the response has given us a sleepless night it has been hugely useful in helpful us decide if and what we want to do now and also how vital it is that we communicate our aims around this idea more effectively as it seems very easy for our motivation to be misconstrued.

So, to address some of your specific concerns (and we do wish we could reply individually):

• Birthrights is a women's rights organisation. The idea behind this initiative is not to insist that all partners stay overnight but to put an end to the frequent situation where a woman (tired, vulnerable and overwhelmed) is begging for her partner to be allowed to stay and s/he is forced to leave. We just want policies to reflect a woman's frequent need to be supported by someone she knows immediately after birth and permit her to make that choice

• One of the most compelling sources when we were considering this idea were the results of the survey we did with Mumsnetters last year. In many of the responses women told us of feeling alone and uncared for postnatally.

• We agree that at the moment the research is insufficient. A big part of the campaign has always been undertaking more in- depth research but we hold our hands up and admit that we were working on the presumption that this was essentially a good idea and that the research would demonstrate this

• So, thanks to your feedback, we are looking at the research phase in a different way. These policies are being rolled out in a growing number of units. If they are not working for women we really need to know, just as is they are working we need to know how and why

• We will continue our plan to do a broader survey of women asking more specific questions about their experiences and thoughts about partners policies. We will also continue our plan to do research at units who have rolled put this policy but now we will put more emphasis on finding units who are happy to work with us on an in-depth audit to ensure we are really capturing women's experiences and thoughts on whether it is working. We will use this thread and the specific areas of concern to help us formulate questions to ask.

• as planned we will also do work to discover the practicalities of these policies. We know from talking to our midwifery contacts that they have thought about noise, privacy, vulnerable women, potential domestic abuse situations and many of the very valid concerns you raised. We plan to find out in more detail whether the measures they have put in place are working. Are women feeling safer or less safe if women request their partners to stay

• if we discover through this research that these policies are making things worse not better for women we will report those findings and of course will not pursue our campaign. We can then use this research to inform trusts considering implementing this policy. Thanks to you we aren't presuming we will launch the campaign but will wait to see what the research says

• if we can discover things that enable women to keep their partners with them while not imposing on others in the many ways you suggest then these will form part

• if we do go ahead we will be very careful in how we communicate about the campaign. We can see now how easily our desire to improve things for women is seen in the wrong light

To that end we want to assure you that:

• we are not doing this to help the government further cut corners. Like you we want them to invest more in postnatal care and continue to do all we can to promote that. If we go ahead with this campaign we will always have this aim running alongside it. We do think though that this initiative may have the potential to offer women support from their loved ones in addition to better postnatal services

• this is not a campaign about men. By partners we mean fathers, same sex partners, mothers, sisters, doulas, friends. A supportive loved-one who the woman chooses as her postnatal support

• midwives and other HCPs workload is very much part of the research. We need to know that this will help them deliver better postnatal care not hinder. Initial research supports this but we need more

• always planned, and now thanks to you of utmost import, will be safeguarding issues, looking at how to create private spaces and addressing potential concerns about domestic abuse

I hope you'll see that we are very responsive to your concerns. We don't think we should abandon this entirely partly because if it is a really dreadful idea we need the research to back this up so that Trusts don't continue to implement this and partly because we have has such a call to action from women on this issue outside of this thread.

We know some of you are feeling angry with us for suggesting the idea. We can only say that our intentions are 100% to respond to women's needs and make positive changes particularly for the most vulnerable women on whom we often focus our time and energy.

Thanks for your honesty and help-we may have got this a bit wrong but we are genuinely trying to make things better not worse."