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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Campaign to end Bounty sales reps' access to maternity wards - please read and share

866 replies

JustineMumsnet · 11/06/2013 22:16

Evening all,

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to fill in our survey on Bounty and share your stories - from the initial idea onwards, this really is a campaign that has been prompted by your concerns, as posted on Mumsnet.

The survey showed that a very large majority (82%) felt it was unacceptable for Bounty sales reps to be on hospital wards, as well as highlighting a number of other concerns about Bounty reps' selling practices, so we're calling on government to end this kind of direct selling/data collecting on NHS wards. See more here.

It's clear, from the survey results, that, even after Bounty updated its code of conduct (these results only include users who gave birth from May 2012 - the full results containing prior data are here) its practices leave a lot to be desired, and that Mumsnet users feel very strongly that the maternity ward is no place for a hard sell, so we're really hoping that government will listen to us.

Here's how you can help...

Please sign the petition

If you're on Twitter please tweet your support for the campaign with the hashtag #bountymutiny and the following link:

tiny.mn/1bsnpNw

If you're on Facebook then please like campaign page our campaign page (there's a FB link to click at the top on the left).

If you're on Google+, well, you'll know what to do.

We'll, of course, keep you posted here about the campaign and any developments. Thanks to everyone for their stories, honesty and input. Here's hoping we can make a difference!

OP posts:
SuffolkNWhat · 14/06/2013 09:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

chocolatemartini · 14/06/2013 10:27

If hmrc are paying public funds to bounty to distribute forms, and nhs wards are accepting payments from bounty, why not just divert taxpayers' money from hmrc and just give it to the maternity wards along with a pile of forms to be given out on discharge? Why is a private company involved at any stage?

emsyj · 14/06/2013 10:56

Looking at the 'key definitions' from the DPA here, it seems clear that birthing status should fall within the definition of 'sensitive personal data' - either because it consists of information relating to the woman's sexual life or (more likely) information relating to her "physical or mental health or condition".

From the link above (which is from the Information Commissioner's Office) -
"The presumption is that, because information about these matters [sensitive personal data] could be used in a discriminatory way, and is likely to be of a private nature, it needs to be treated with greater care than other personal data. In particular, if you are processing sensitive personal data you must satisfy one or more of the conditions for processing which apply specifically to such data, as well as one of the general conditions which apply in every case. The nature of the data is also a factor in deciding what security is appropriate.

"The categories of sensitive personal data are broadly drawn so that, for example, information that someone has a broken leg is classed as sensitive personal data, even though such information is relatively matter of fact and obvious to anyone seeing the individual concerned with their leg in plaster and using crutches. Clearly, details about an individual?s mental health, for example, are generally much more ?sensitive? than whether they have a broken leg."

The conditions for processing are much more stringent for sensitive personal data - see here. I don't see that disclosure to a Bounty rep (who is on the ward entirely for commercial reasons and thereby privy to the 'sensitive personal data' of who has given birth, the sex of the baby, how the baby was delivered etc etc) falls into any of these categories. It seems on my reading of the information here that it can only be processed without the explicit (i.e. NOT implied) consent of the data subject unless there is a substantial public interest reason for processing which necessitates that consent is not sought because doing so would prejudice the purposes for which the data is being processed - e.g. an investigation into 'seriously improper conduct' of a person that is being conducted to protect the public.

All very interesting. I wish I'd paid more attention to Data Protection at law school!

emsyj · 14/06/2013 10:56

Sorry can only be processed with explicit consent.

Xenia · 14/06/2013 11:51

What is the sensitive data they would process? Your photograph is not sensitive data. I think it is only photographs that Bounty may be processing without express consents and even there I believe in general they ask - are you happy to have it taken (and in some Muslim only areas I would imagine no one would ever consent so no photos are taken so no breach occurs).

Mere presence on a ward with consent from the hospital - ie. walking around is not processing data. Stealing your data from medical records at the end of your bed (if they do that which I suspect they do not) would be.

UniqueAndAmazing · 14/06/2013 11:58

"A few posters have mentioned the packs you get from the MW at your booking in. I tried to refuse mine, but accepted it when the MW said that they got £1 for each one they handed out. I felt like I'd be doing the NHS out of much needed dosh if I refused the sodding thing."

this is exactly the reason why MN boycotts Nestle.
that Nestle give samples to the midwives in underdeveloped countries, and pay for training etc, so the midwives recommend nestle products instead of teaching the women how to BF.

emsyj · 14/06/2013 12:35

The fact that you are in hospital and have just had a baby. This is sensitive personal data (I'm not sure why you think it isn't? - the example given in the link is of a person who has broken their leg). Having access to the ward and seeing who is there and that they've given birth (including, possibly, that your baby is ill/in SCBU, has died, you've had twins etc etc) when you are a third party is, IMO, processing sensitive personal data as the hospital are disclosing it to Bounty who have no reason to be there.

If you were a personal injury claims company, you wouldn't be able to ring the A&E department and ask for a list of patients who had been in a car accident that day and then go into the curtained-off areas to offer them leaflets about making a claim (perhaps with a free pen?) This is exactly what Bounty are able to do on the maternity ward - identify who is likely to be susceptible to baby-related marketing. So what justification is there for having third parties on the maternity ward? Why are they allowed to be privy to the fact that you're there, you've had a baby etc?

I disagree that allowing Bounty reps on the ward isn't processing sensitive personal data. Consent from the hospital is not consent from the data subject. Consent by mothers to being in hospital is not express consent to their sensitive personal data (i.e. the fact that they've had a baby) being disclosed to a third party. Express consent from the data subject is required. Being able to 'opt out' (which doesn't appear to work very well anyway according to several posters on this thread) isn't express consent.

Mouseface · 14/06/2013 13:55

TooTaboo - Shock WTAF? I am absolutely appalled that a Bounty Rep did that to you and your baby!!! Whilst you were asleep FFS!!! That is horrific. I'd have gone all levels of crazy Bat Shit on her ass. I think you were extremely polite in the circumstances.

What a horrible thing to wake up to Sad x

Mouseface · 14/06/2013 14:09

AprilFool - Sad when your baby is hooked up to all sorts of monitors and machinery keeping him alive, the last thing you want is a stranger touting for your business.

When Nemo was in neonates, there was a degree of severity if that makes sense. The sickest babies were at the end of the ward, (NICU) and the ones who were almost okay enough to come out or go home were nearest the door.

Nemo started off in NICU and gradually worked his way down towards the door over a number of weeks. It was the most frightening time of my life. Watching some of those babies never make it to the door. Knowing how lucky we were that our baby did.

Each time I went back to the room I had, there would be another 'reminder' that the Bounty Rep would be calling in on me at X O'Clock that day. I asked that the MWs tell her not to bother but there was more than one and they were so relentless.

I was only allowed to stay in the hospital for 10 days after his birth. Thank God these reps aren't allowed to wander freely into the SCBU/NICU wards.

I really feel for you xxx

Elquota · 14/06/2013 14:40

Agree with the idea of a sticker or sign. I don't think it should be attached to the notes though.

Elquota · 14/06/2013 14:41

(reason being I wouldn't want the nosy Bounty woman anywhere near my private notes).

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 14/06/2013 15:28

How about a folder to put them in, like the ones bounty give out, saying
"Unless you are a health professional, you may not access my notes" with a no-bounty sign on it?

looksarethefirstweapon · 14/06/2013 15:36

I'm so glad this has been brought to light. I had numerous visits from the Bounty lady at my hospital. Before I gave birth, I actually looked forward to her visit and having my newborn photographed.

When it came to it, I'd had a long traumatic labour and birth. I knew I was going to be in hospital for a while so I told her I'd get in touch when I was in a fit state to make decisions. Like many people, I struggled a lot with breastfeeding and the 'Baby Blues' hit me really hard. Having my baby photographed was the last thing on my mind, I just wanted to go home with a healthy baby. She still came back every day, armed with bribes freebies and each time she got her arse in her hands when I told her I wasn't ready. Tomorrow was always her day off, I had to do it today or I'd miss out. Needless to say, she was there every day!

It put me right off. I can't stand pressure selling and I went home thinking she was a miserable liar. And wondering how I was going to fit all her bribes freebies in my tiny Peugeot 107!

Not just that, but you have very little privacy/dignity as it is with the world and his wife traipsing into your room to check this, that and the other without another stranger wandering in and catching you with your bits & pieces on show.

Don't get me wrong, Bounty packs are a great idea. And I'm not just saying that because I didn't buy a single pack of nappies or wipes for 2 months thanks to the desperate saleswoman in the hospital. I genuinely think they are a great help to new mums. Preying on the vulnerable in hospital though, is the lowest of the low. They shouldn't be allowed to target hospital wards.

Xenia · 14/06/2013 15:58

em, what data do they process without explicit consent? Do you mean when they take a photo and if they take the photo without consent? I don't think they process any other data unless the mother has expressly agreed. Hospitals do not give them lists of patient names so how would they even know the name of the lady in front of them?

UniqueAndAmazing · 14/06/2013 16:10

Xenia - i think they mean that they take your details when you're not in a state to argue.
that could be construed as forced consent

StateofConfusion · 14/06/2013 17:06

6 months after my original thread on this i am still getting shite in my letterbox, i did not give her my information. And im still pissed she ruined my first few days with my last baby. well done mumsnet for all of this!

Daisy299 · 14/06/2013 17:53

IsThisAGoodIdea, I've got social anxiety disorder. I don't deal well with strangers at the best of times, and I'm assuming post-birth is certainly not 'the best of times'. Hence I worry about Bounty reps harassing me, particularly when my husband is not present.

I didn't see the need to bring my condition up originally because marketing staff have no place in a hospital ward regardless. Every mother is likely to feel vulnerable, confused etc - not just the ones prone to mental health concerns.

If marketing staff were allowed to wander the wards selling wheelchairs to amputees, we would be horrified, and rightly so. Quite how their presence in a maternity ward is justifiable is totally beyond me, even on the basic point of security and hygiene.

Xenia · 14/06/2013 19:36

Unique, that may be so. Women may feel they cannot say no. I certainly would object on moral grounds to sales people being allowed in and am so glad I had my 6 hour transfers so was in and out or gave birth at home. You can avoid all this awful stuff and the institutionalisation of staying in a hospital too. However case law has said women can give a consent even in labour to things like a C section so I suspect after birth most of them are able to give an informed consent about whether they want Bounty to take a picture or not.

Daisy, very good points. I would like them banned even if it means loss of revenue.

Says Bounty pays the NHS £2.3m. I suggest the NHS can manage without that money and hospitals should end Bounty visitors to wards.

group.bmj.com/group/media/latest-news/doctor-brands-nhs-profits-from-pregnancy-201cunacceptable201d says (not sure of the date)

" Doctor brands NHS profits from pregnancy ?unacceptable?

Profits from pregnancy: how trusted organisations sell out women to commercial interests

Trusted organisations, such as the NHS and some UK royal colleges, profit by selling commercial advertisers access to pregnant women through promotions such as Bounty bags.

On bmj.com today, GP Margaret McCartney says these potential conflicts of interests are unacceptable.

For example, she describes how a commercial company was offered access to mothers through adverts and editorial content in ?Baby and You? ? a magazine being set up by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, which it plans to give for free to pregnant women.

The college receives £90,000 a year from the publisher, but said it is ?concerned to be associated with this practice,? which it described as ?ethically questionable? and that it has ?strict policies on its advertising and sponsorship and does not seek advertorials for any of its publications.?

Bounty is another promotions company, with several points of contact with new families, writes McCartney. It gives out a total of 2.6 million ?baby bags? a year. Some are distributed by NHS healthcare professionals and others by Bounty representatives in postnatal wards.

Bounty told the BMJ that it pays £2.3m to the NHS annually and that over 90% of mothers are ?satisfied? with the packs, according to its own survey of 4,000 parents in January 2013.

However Belinda Phipps, chief executive of the National Childbirth Trust, is angry about the way that the NHS allows Bounty access to new mothers. ?Within hours of giving birth, they are being asked questions - their name and address, details of life insurance - and they give them in good faith, thinking they?re speaking to a hospital person,? she says. ?In fact it?s a commercial person. The NHS is condoning a sales team to collect data from mothers in order to sell their name on to commercial interests.?

In a 2010 survey, the NCT found that half of just over 1,000 parents did not know, and were unhappy, that their details would be used to target advertising to them. A further 37% knew that their details would be sold on and were unhappy with it; the remainder were unconcerned.

The NCT also found that H M Revenue and Customs pays Bounty more than £90,000 a year to distribute child benefit forms in its packs.
?The lack of knowledge about what signing over your details means is troubling in a hospital environment, which should take consent and confidentiality seriously,? says Dr McCartney. ?The hours after birth are hardly an optimal time to obtain formal consent. And is the presence of a non-essential Bounty worker on the ward desirable??

McCartney also points to Emma?s Diary ? a book endorsed by the Royal College of General Practitioners that is posted in bulk to general practices to pass on to pregnant women. It comprises 25 pages of medical information and 119 pages of adverts and offers ?gift packs? on the receipt of information from mothers.

Is this helpful knowledge deserving of the stamp of RCGP approval, she asks?

In the RCGP?s accounts, more than £214,000 is entered as ?other income including grants and sponsorships.? The RCGP would not tell the BMJ how much of this was the net gain from advertising through Emma?s Diary, but in a statement it said that ?all content is quality assured by our RCGP editorial board who do a sterling job in ensuring that it is updated to reflect any changes to medical working practices, latest research findings [and] government guidelines.?

Is it right that the NHS infer its approval for the thousands of products being promoted at parents, asks McCartney? Do we really want parents placed under advertising pressure and for its doctors, radiographers, and midwives to be the conduit?

She concludes: ?Some conflicts of interest in medicine are hard to avoid. Others are not. These should be easy.?"

Northernlurker · 14/06/2013 19:45

I only met the Bounty lady after my third child. I had wanted to go home from delivery but due to a pph they wanted me to stay in overnight. I said no way (it was then 5am and they wanted me to stay about another 30 hours) but I would stay say 12 hours and see how things went. So around 11am when I'd finished mopping self up after rather scary flooding and clots incident and was just about relaxed enough to go to sleep after labouring all night - in she pops. I felt dire at that point and told her to go away. Of course I got the 'but don't you want your bag..' stuff so I said fine, leave the bag and just go away. She went but of course by then I was wired and awake again. Didn't really sleep for another 36 hours because dd3 wanted to feed all the next night. So thanks for that Bounty. There is NO WAY they should be allowed near recntly delivered mums. Especially not those who've been up all night and lost a lot of blood.

RedToothBrush · 14/06/2013 20:05

However case law has said women can give a consent even in labour to things like a C section so I suspect after birth most of them are able to give an informed consent about whether they want Bounty to take a picture or not.

Actually, given the information that women are given, the question is perhaps less about the consent part of this and more about the informed bit.

Plus you are talking about the difference between making decisions about life saving issues with health professionals who have sworn an oath to act in your best interests, and someone who is trying to sell you something for their own personal gain and has no interest whatsoever in your welfare.

Now thats a big difference.

The later has not got the motivation nor the commitment to you and has every bit of self interest in glossing over the negative aspects of what they are actually doing.

Consent about your health is therefore a very different issue than consent about other aspects of your life.

In general, in emergency situations and non-emergency situations a person will tend to give consent based on the information provided by them a health professional. I will admit that sometimes HCP do apply too much pressure, but as a rule, we do tend to act on medical advice because of this issue of trust and the sworn responsibility that those caring for us have made. Our health and that of our immediate family is the number one priority in our lives and this is a really important aspect of why we and how we make decisions. There is a level of accountability here too.

In a situation such as this - selling photos on the ward or collecting information - are women making the same, or similar decision to the one they would if they weren't cold called and the commercial company was in a side room? And is there the same level of trust and accountability going on? And aren't women perhaps thinking about other things which they consider to be far more important and this blurs out the other things round the side.

Which means how much can we count on the fact that the decision that is made is informed consent? And how much is that decision given because of the situation and the situation that creates a situation of trust which is a complete and utter lie.

Which goes right back to the trading standards regulations about 'situation' and vulnerability. Its perfectly possible to consent to major things at high pressure points in our lives because they are the one and only thing we are focussed on. But whilst we are focussed on these things, and perhaps under the influence of drugs and extreme emotional pressure, are we able to make good informed decisions about the 'less important' aspects of our lives? Isn't this precisely why sales people are banned from other wards and precisely why the regulations exist in the first place, because they recognise this issue and the fact that consenting to something is somewhat more complex than simply being sane and alert.

Cereja · 14/06/2013 20:40

Yay!
Was exhausted, still partly epidural after a long labour and this woman came up, asked for my details, which I gave because I assumed she was a midwife, only to be then given the bounty bag. Scandalous! Pleased mumsnet is doing this

emsyj · 14/06/2013 21:29

Xenia the definition of 'processing includes: "disclosure of the information or data by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available" - so I am (not very articulately) referring to the hospital processing sensitive personal data by disclosing that you have had a baby (and very possibly that you have had a c-section, a normal delivery, an epidural, twins, a premature baby etc etc - personal details that may not be immediately obvious to an observer as you push your pram down the street) to a third party (i.e. Bounty). The disclosure doesn't require the Bounty rep to know your name - they can 'identify' you because they can see you. They don't need to know what your name is, just see you and thereby be able to identify you as an individual.

I've had half a bottle of excellent wine so that might not be very well expressed...

Amazinggg · 14/06/2013 22:11

Just a quick update to my previous post - I said that DH told them to eff off as I was struggling to bf and receiving help - just speaking to him now, apparently he did literally say eff off as they came twice when I was sleeping and wanted to wake me up!! Am pretty shocked. Thank you MNHQ for doing this and really hope Bounty are kicked out.

Xenia · 14/06/2013 22:18

I really don't think the hospital discloses your personal data by letting a Bounty rep walk around wards unless people's names are on the beds. It is no different from if the Bounty rep walked down a main street and saw you with a baby in its pram . That is not processing data. I am not Bounty's representative here however. I did write a couple of books on data protection law but like most people I often get things wrong so more than happy to be corrected.

RedToothBrush · 14/06/2013 22:26

Xenia, I've just looked at the most recent comments from the last month in the other thread.

I've directly copied and pasted this post:

MsIngaFewmarbles Wed 15-May-13 23:21:50
I started work on a postnatal ward last week. A woman without a name badge or uniform came into the ward office and was reading the board we have for all the mothers and babies information. I politely asked who she was and she said she was the Bounty lady. I asked if she was allowed in as we have personal information in there. She said that she came into the office every morning to check for new mums shock I haven't had a chance to ask my boss about it yet but I will. It's such an invasion at a really special and vulnerable time.

Thoughts?

Reading that comment, I hope that whistleblowing is going on, because that, to my mind is a clear breech.