Campaign to end Bounty sales reps' access to maternity wards - please read and share

[JustineMumsnet]

Evening all,

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to fill in our survey on Bounty and share your stories - from the initial idea onwards, this really is a campaign that has been prompted by your concerns, as posted on Mumsnet.

The survey showed that a very large majority (82%) felt it was unacceptable for Bounty sales reps to be on hospital wards, as well as highlighting a number of other concerns about Bounty reps' selling practices, so we're calling on government to end this kind of direct selling/data collecting on NHS wards. See more here.

It's clear, from the survey results, that, even after Bounty updated its code of conduct (these results only include users who gave birth from May 2012 - the full results containing prior data are here) its practices leave a lot to be desired, and that Mumsnet users feel very strongly that the maternity ward is no place for a hard sell, so we're really hoping that government will listen to us.

Here's how you can help...

Please sign the petition

If you're on Twitter please tweet your support for the campaign with the hashtag #bountymutiny and the following link:

tiny.mn/1bsnpNw

If you're on Facebook then please like campaign page our campaign page (there's a FB link to click at the top on the left).

If you're on Google+, well, you'll know what to do.

We'll, of course, keep you posted here about the campaign and any developments. Thanks to everyone for their stories, honesty and input. Here's hoping we can make a difference!

MNHQ - thank you from me too..... we have no family nearby, so it was just DH and me trying to juggle his self employed status, DD being at school, a newborn in SCBU/NICU and a disabled wife..

It was damned hard, it was confusing, upsetting and we were so where we didn't think we'd be...... I hope that Bounty go from these wards where we're supposed to be happy, feel safe with our newborns.

Bounty's pressure means that is NOT the case IME.

Off to bed, night brave mums who have posted about their own horrific experiences. xxx

Please look at this link to Wrightington Hospitals
www.wwl.nhs.uk/internet/specialties/maternity/hospital_stay.asp

Now go to the bottom and read the section about Bounty

Each day a Bounty representative is available on the ward to offer a photographic service. This is entirely optional and a charge will be incurred. You will also receive a complimentary Birth pack which includes your Child Benefit documentation. Please ensure you obtain this pack before you leave hospital. If you are having a Home Birth then your Community Midwife will arrange one for you

Now could this not be read as you must get a pack because it has your child benefit forms in it?

Or, you could try Derwent Valley where Bounty Lady is one of the medical professionals..
www.dvh.nhs.uk/services/a-to-z-of-services/maternity-services/virtual-tour/staff/

That's not what the ICO guidance says though Xenia - they don't need to know your name for you to be an 'identifiable individual'. Seeing you in person is sufficient according to what I have read. They don't need to know your name according to the guidance.

Re "It is no different from if the Bounty rep walked down a main street" - walking down a main street is you being in public. An NHS maternity ward isn't a public place is it? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. My local maternity unit is locked and you have to be buzzed in, so it doesn't feel very public - you need a reason to be admitted.

By way of analogy, it's fine for a claims company to stand around in town centres with clipboards (unfortunately) and approach people hobbling around on crutches or bearing other visible signs of injury to see if they have a claim - but that isn't equivalent to them being able to access a hospital ward specifically in order to find such people when they are neither a medical professional nor a relative or friend of the patients there.

This is purely my interpretation of the legislation and guidance as I have read it. Given that you presumably have a more extensive knowledge of the Act than I do I am genuinely interested in how you conclude that it is definitely not a breach. I can't think of a way to word that without sounding confrontational, so all I can say is that I am not being confrontational I am genuinely interested in the debate. I am an ex-lawyer but have no particular knowledge of Data Protection.

If you stated that you did not wish a partner to visit you whilst on the ward then this would have to be respected. There would be no ifs or buts about it.

Yet:

FryOneFatManic Fri 14-Jun-13 14:19:47
So, had a c section on Tuesday morning, Tuesday afternoon asked the midwife if they had bounty reps and if so, could she tell them I'm not interested so they couldn't come to my room, she laughed and said "well I'll try". Wednesday, the bounty lady still came in to see me, although dh was there and told her we were not interested, so she left. When I was leaving on Thursday morning she was there, outside of visiting hours, in the midwife room, where everyone's notes are kept...

It would be interesting to see if you do end up with junk mail after all, if the rep was in the midwives room....

Why the "I'll try" instead of of course and it being completely respected?

I don't get it. Why is one accepted and out completely outlawed.

How can a hospital ensure that data is protected if staff with a commercial interest in your details be allowed to roam wards freely and unsupervised. This is what is classed as a 'risk'. Yet, none of the hospitals I asked had done a risk assessment for the Bounty Lady...

xenia, could you explain why an MNer (not sure if it's been on this thread but it was on the one I was reading the other day when I was writing an article about bounty), was getting birthday notifications for years despite not giving bounty anything due to a stillbirth?

I'm going to have to get my laptop out to read/reply properly.

I just wanted to say first though, I wouldn't want them anywhere near the hospital. I think forms in reception to include a photographic voucher either in the form or in the pack from Boots should be enough. having these women IN hospital gives them some credence, it's allowing y the hospital to endorse the products.

and endorse bounty.

oh and if anyone is really desperate for a free pic, NCT have a partnership if you go through their page.

And thankfully, in the days of camera phones it's all becoming obsolete anyway.

mumof4 - not sure what hospital you were in or worked for but that doesn't reflect the experience of most people here or the opinions I got for my article.

and really? do some background research before you criticise an organisation, because MN is the most supportive, proactive site, both as a forum and an organisation, I know. I've been on a campaign with Justine, I'm involved at the moment in supporting an MNer who is bereaved, and part of the miscarriage statement was from a point I made. as much as these things are important to me, I'm not sure I'd have had the opportunity to do it without MN. despite what the media say, this place does good!

I work for the NHS and I think this whole thing is totally wrong and we all know of they were not paying for access they would not be there. Its wrong that only certain companies can do this eg small business can't as they aren't in the pack. The whole thing is wrong wrong wrong. Mums should boycott the whole bounty pack thing until they are forced to withdraw, I never signed on when I had my two children as once they get your details its rubbish coming through the post forever.

HMRC's missed a £90,000 trick here.

If Bounty are using the CB forms as a hook to increase acceptance of their packs, HMRC shouldn't be paying Bounty.

Bounty should either be merely permitted to distribute the forms, no payment passing.

Or Bounty should be paying HMRC for the privilege of using attaching their products to such a valuable item.

If you have an expectation of privacy on an NHS public ward and you are not told about Bounty then Bounty taking your photograph without permission would breach the law. I can agree on that. If you are in public place people can take photos.

It depends what is being done. If it is photos without consent then that could breach the law particularly if there is an expectation of privacy there which you don't get in a street when people can snap you doing your Oxford St Christmas shopping without permission.

If we are talking about taking away your personal details without permission that would breach the law too.

I do not believe that a hospital allowing Bounty people on to the ward though is a data protection breach. Just allowing them to walk around the public ward any more than if the hospital cleaner or Uncle Bert or the man changing the light bulbs is allowed on a ward is not a breach of the data protection law.

However some of the examples people have given of Bounty reps not following Bounty rules will be breaches just as every year someone on the Police Force goes to the police database and takes data in breach of police rules and in breach of the law.

On this one:
"MsIngaFewmarbles Wed 15-May-13 23:21:50
I started work on a postnatal ward last week. A woman without a name badge or uniform came into the ward office and was reading the board we have for all the mothers and babies information. I politely asked who she was and she said she was the Bounty lady. I asked if she was allowed in as we have personal information in there. She said that she came into the office every morning to check for new mums shock I haven't had a chance to ask my boss about it yet but I will. It's such an invasion at a really special and vulnerable time."
It sounds like some NHS websites do tell mothers Bounty people may be around as quoted in an earlier post above but not very clearly and who reads the website before they attend.

I certainly think it is worth looking at. If the Bounty people are allowed into the office to see a list of who has given birth that is passing personal data to Bounty. That is sensitive data as it is about health information. That needs the mothers' express consent no matter how much money Bounty is paying the hospital. Now it may be that before being admitted mothers sign a consent (I doubt it but it's possible).

Does anyone know what is shown in NHS wards? If I walked around one could I see someone's name and medical details at the bottom of her bed for example and anyone can see that including visitors or does the bed tell you nothing?

I'm so glad this is being looked into. I gave birth to our first child in April and after being home for half and day we were rushed straight back into hospital. Our LO was very unwell and spent a week in hospital - I stayed with her. A bounty rep visited the ward while we were there and was really pushy wanting to take a photograph. I found it very upsetting - it brought to the fore how unwell my baby was and quite frankly after a 36 hr labour and a week of no sleep on the ward I looked a wreck - the very last thing we wanted was a stranger pointing a camera in our faces.

Bluesky - sorry to hear you had to go through that.

Xebia - at the end of my bed, were notes about the birth, in a folder (closed) with my name on the front. It wasn't there all of the time, but because my baby was in SCBU, HIS details were in the unit with him. My notes had all of my personal details in, DOB, address, details of the birth, dad's details etc....... I got a copy of that to bring home. Also what pain killer meds I was on post birth.

I was in a side room but I couldn't lock the door when I spent the days and nights in SCBU, so if the file was left at the end of the bed, anyone could look at it I guess.

Xenia - so sorry!

I think a closed folder at end of bed which a visiting rapist is just as likely to see as what are probably mostly pretty nice Bounty ladies, does not breach data protection law but I think a decision about allowing Bounty people in should be taken not on legal grounds but because it is just totally inappropriate for new mothers. Also I am surprised they are all in hospital long enough to meet them. What is the normal say in hospital these days after having a baby and do the Bounty people come round every day of the year? I was in 6 hours. Even if you stayed in 24 or 48 presumably the chance of being there when a Bounty person was there is pretty slim.

The thing that concerns me about the folder on the end of the bed/data confidentiality/everyone else potentially having access is that during visiting hours I expected "random" (ie everyone elses visitors) people to be wandering around the ward, so I was always awake. During non-visitor hours, you expect only medical/essential maintenance staff to be there, and that is the time to be dozing. And examples have been given of bounty staff nosing through the notes (to "help" by not disturbing you) to get your details.

Btw Xenia, next time (not that I'm planning on a next time!) let me know your hospital and I'll give birth there! My hospital was a bugger at letting you out quickly, even on my 2nd perfectly straight forward (although induced - though they did say this was no reason to keep me in) labour. The doctor was apparently too busy to discharge us
and DS2 was born at 6am and the bounty lady turned up at 9am

That is, if I didnt get the home birth I wanted again!

Certainly going to support this - even though I've never met a Bounty Lady. I gave birth in a MLU, no Bounty Lady in sight.

BUT...I did pick up a pack at one of my scans, which has resulted in CONSTANT junk mail over the past year, cold-calling (mostly surveys) and junk emails too. I'm sick to the back teeth of it. I got one nappy and one tiny pot of bum cream.

In fact, I was quite looking forward to getting one, as my mum had told me how good the packs were...obviously things have changed since she had her kids in the 80s.

I dunno if I am a lucky one but I never got bothered my bounty rep. like she did come to see me but she never bothered me a such. I was very relaxed with her and actually was thankful as in the free bag I got was a small sized nappy with actually was the right size for my baby as he was 5lb 1oz. She just asked me if I would like to fill in a leaflet and said if I didn't want to get any newsletter or information to be passed on then I didn't have to and that I would still get the free pack. She was a very lovely lady and even came back to give me more free samples as I had been in the hospital for nearly a week and had some spares.

I've not really had any junk mail from bounty only the other companies that I signed up to myself like cow and gate and such. Also if the curtains were closed she would not bother anyone and if she did it would only be because they requested she would come back later.

@ xenia the bounty woman for me seemed to be in every 3 days or so.

WOAH bounty taking photos now that IS against the law. My son had his photograph taken BUT she had an ID badge and was a private company and only came round once a week and I was very lucky. She asked me if I was interested and I said yes and she was very gentle with David and didn't force him to do anything. Either I'm very lucky meeting nice people or maybe I'm a bit laid back >W