Campaign to end Bounty sales reps' access to maternity wards - please read and share

[JustineMumsnet]

Evening all,

Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to fill in our survey on Bounty and share your stories - from the initial idea onwards, this really is a campaign that has been prompted by your concerns, as posted on Mumsnet.

The survey showed that a very large majority (82%) felt it was unacceptable for Bounty sales reps to be on hospital wards, as well as highlighting a number of other concerns about Bounty reps' selling practices, so we're calling on government to end this kind of direct selling/data collecting on NHS wards. See more here.

It's clear, from the survey results, that, even after Bounty updated its code of conduct (these results only include users who gave birth from May 2012 - the full results containing prior data are here) its practices leave a lot to be desired, and that Mumsnet users feel very strongly that the maternity ward is no place for a hard sell, so we're really hoping that government will listen to us.

Here's how you can help...

Please sign the petition

If you're on Twitter please tweet your support for the campaign with the hashtag #bountymutiny and the following link:

tiny.mn/1bsnpNw

If you're on Facebook then please like campaign page our campaign page (there's a FB link to click at the top on the left).

If you're on Google+, well, you'll know what to do.

We'll, of course, keep you posted here about the campaign and any developments. Thanks to everyone for their stories, honesty and input. Here's hoping we can make a difference!

I am pregnant now. I have been harassed by the Bounty lady after all five previous babies were born.
I posted earlier about how pleased I am Mumsnet have done this campaign. I also intend to write NO CONTACT FROM BOUNTY on my birth plan, has anyone else done this yet or discussed it with their midwife? If yes what happened?
Also shall I have a sign ready to put over my bed saying the same thing when I give birth?

I discussed it with the head midwife for my local maternity unit Buswanker and she said I could ask not to be approached by the Bounty rep, so you should be able to request no contact. I had my baby at home in the end so I don't know how effective the request would have been in practice though...

Thanks emsyj. Maybe if a high percentage of pregnant women now request no contact then it help this campaign.

Mouse, that's horrific.

My dts were prem and in NICU too, in fact one of them had been transferred about 1.5 hours away when bounty lady came round.

She seemed disappointed there was no cots in my room.

Not as much as I was, love.

I think it's very telling that there are still a lot of women out there who think the Bounty packs and photography are a 'service' - someone upthread refers to 'the service should remain for those who want it'. It's not a service. Bounty are a commercial organisation who make their money selling personal details to third parties. The packs and photography are just a method of making an approach that appears legitimate. Bounty are not stupid. They know that if they came up to your bed and said, 'Can you fill in your details here please so that we can sell them to marketing companies at a huge profit so that you are inundated with junk mail for at least 12 months with no benefit to you whatsoever' then most people would just laugh in their face. But they are clearly doing a good job of pretending that they are there to offer something of value to new mothers as they have a lot of people convinced!

Interesting to see that there is an argument here regarding Data Protection that could (and should) be raised with the Information Commissioner. I raised this with the local head of midwifery (can't remember her job title right now) and she essentially avoided the issue and said that Bounty reps don't have access to medical records. I just haven't had the time or headspace to pursue it further since DD2 arrived but I really want to. This could be an 'easy' way of getting Bounty banned.

I was under the impression that a 'bounty pack' was an actual necessary thing I needed during pregnancy - at my booking in appointment, the midwife said I would get one - I assumed it was an NHS thing. I got given it by a midwife at a later appointment, then another tried to give it to me again later.

Absolute junk. There was some form in there for registering baby's birth and most people I know didn't realise you could get that form online or from the PO quite easily. It's not even seen as a separate entity from NHS IMO.

And that's just the packs. I was in far too much of a drug induced haze post c-section to be aware of the photo pushing, I believe dH told them to eff off though as they kept trying to barge in when the breastfeeding counsellor was assisting me with bf a painful and emotional time.

I just wanted to say that I had my baby last week & was dreading the approach of the Bounty lady - but when she came round she was lovely. Really nice & polite, not pushy at all. I guess it all depends who you get....must have been lucky!

Noideatall did you say 'No' though?

I've read stories about these sharks before and am appalled by what some of you have been subjected to.

I have a good friend who was badly injured in a RTA which was the other drivers fault (smashed up, off his face on morphine) and there would have been national outrage if he'd been doorstepped by ambulance chasing solicitors, but you're expected to 'opt out' of that kind of thing just because you've had a baby? Fuck that.

Also shall I have a sign ready to put over my bed saying the same thing when I give birth?
Yes, Buswanker, I'd do that. Get it laminated so it can be disinfected, just in case someone tries to tell you it's a health risk.

That was the almost exact response that I got from Hospitals in FOI requests emsyj. They only considered data protection to be about access to patient files and nothing more. Which actually is not the case. They just generally avoided the questions; but this evasiveness was actually very telling (not to mention one hospital actually referring to patients as customers in its response!)

The other piece of legislation which could apply here is the Human Rights Act Article 8 which protects the right to a private life.

Without going into too much detail as I've talked about this before this is how I've understood it (though I'm just reading this without any professional knowledge so I could be wrong).

In general the act tends to prevent the interference of public authorities, from people's private lives, but there are certain circumstances public organisations have a positive obligation to take action to protect private lives. This generally comes into far in cases where someone is vulnerable or can't protect themselves for some reason.

In this situation, this definitely does require a test case to prove that wrong doing has been done as the legislation is deliberately very vague so can be used to cover a range of issue. The point is that it needs to be discussed and tested in court to set precident, but I do think there is a strong case here for hospitals, because of this issue of duty of care and their responsibilities to patients.

The questions of consent under duress and vulnerability are the real keys here. If there are aggressive sales practices going on here - which seems to be the case under the trading standards clauses - then whether consent has been freely given and valid is highly questionable. And if someone is in the care of someone - and therefore can legally termed as vulnerable in someway - when this is happening then they probably would also be liable. Whats more they are potentially guilty of being complicit in financial abuse of patient as a commercial transaction is taking place (both for the selling of photos and accessing patients for the harvesting of data).

Hence responsibility would come back to hospitals and in therefore in turn the DoH. And why their statement which totally abdicates responsibility in this is just so weak.

You may be surprised to hear from 'a Bounty hunter', but may i say former! I applied and accepted the post as it promised 'training' as a photographer - I couldn't wait!! I did not expect to have such intimate access to mums and was astonished as to the lack of check ups (my refs were asked twice once using another name and 6 weeks later), training, security and lastly photography training. The only training was sales/targets/ftf -ie no's mums met face to face. Bombarded with emails/txts on daily figures and league positions!! The camera was on Auto - you were trained to 'click'!! Paid purely on bonus, therefore low deliver wards salaries are simply zilch. Couldn't believe that they could actually get women to work in such a manner. Only those with little self esteem or those who are absolutely desperate for cash - and lets face many of us are. However, I'm fortunate enough to have got out after only 10 weeks of realising i'd been sold quite a few untruths.
Completely agree this shouldn't be allowed

This.....

Amazinggg Thu 13-Jun-13 23:01:54

I was under the impression that a 'bounty pack' was an actual necessary thing I needed during pregnancy - at my booking in appointment, the midwife said I would get one - I assumed it was an NHS thing. I got given it by a midwife at a later appointment, then another tried to give it to me again later.

Absolute junk. There was some form in there for registering baby's birth and most people I know didn't realise you could get that form online or from the PO quite easily. It's not even seen as a separate entity from NHS IMO.

And I had the curtain pulled back by Bounty lady in post-natal ward while baby in SCBU. And she exclaimed, "What, no baby?!". Completely insensitive. And who gave her the right to pull my curtain back, the only thing enabling my privacy? My experience is insignificant compared to some of the others on this thread, but is also sadly typical.

If a mobility scooter company started going around amuptee wards offering test drives to patients, there would be absolute horror.

But approaching a woman who has just given birth is fine?

Signed, shared....

www.burtonmail.co.uk/News/Queens-defends-having-sales-staff-in-maternity-ward-20130613170716.htm

This article was posted above, and it is my local hospital where I gave birth to 5 of my 6 children. Bounty are not "well received" they are forcibly given. I was not aware until I had my third that CB forms could be obtained independently.

The reps dont like being told no, and now the same hospital has sold adverstising space to another photographers and advise "booking now in time for your newborns arrival".

It is less like a maternity ward and more like fashion week at Queens Burton now. It is one of the many reasons that I had my 6th at home, utterly shite care being another. My previous births had been "high risk" except they werent

www.burtonmail.co.uk/News/Queens-defends-having-sales-staff-in-maternity-ward-20130613170716.htm

Sorry, clickable link

I gave birth in the last year and filled out the survey. I wasn't bombarded with Bounty info throughout pregnancy - the hospital I gave birth in didn't even mention it and I actually requested a pack at my booking-in appointment because I wanted the mini Sudocrem pot (). I didn't have to do anything to get that, the midwife just got one for me.

When I entered the pushing stage of labour I was transferred to a private room. Midway through pushing someone entered the room and the midwife barked at them to get out and exclaimed that she didn't know why that person was entering the room. I was pretty out of it so I didn't really give it any thought.

At almost precisely the same time the next day (in the morning) I was still in that room as I had stayed in there overnight. This meant that DH could also stay in the room on the pull-out chair bed, which he did. My 1 day old baby was finally asleep following a night of crying. DH was asleep. And I was so ready for some sleep. I must have been asleep for about 20mins when a knock comes on the door and a woman walks in and opens the curtain that covers the entrance. I woke up straight away thinking it must be medical personnel. Uh, nuh. It was the Bounty lady. On pulling back the curtain she went wide-eyed and looked a tad surprised to see my husband asleep at her feet. She then looked at me and mentioned she was from Bounty. Sheer tiredness had rendered me incapable of speech so I simply pointed to the corner of the room where a Bounty bag sat having been brought to me the day before by a midwife. She tried to talk and I just kept waving at the bag. She eventually backed out of the room.

It is purely speculation, I realise, but it did make me wonder if the Bounty lady had stumbled into my labour the day before. What really got me though is that anyone would have the confidence (or is that audacity?) to walk into a closed-door private room that is also a birthing suite without any invitation (the knock was purely formality) and act surprised that we weren't actually prepared for accepting visitors. Salespeople have no place in maternity units. Full stop. Whether you're pregnant, on the post-natal ward, in a room, whatever the circumstances. It's just not right.

Could mumsnet (or someone, I would ask someone I know) design a logo similar to the say no to Nestle one.
It would be printed out or made into a sticker and stuck on maternity notes and laminated and put above your hospital bed. It would be recognisable and clear to everyone then and would help get the message across.

Stickers to go on maternity notes is a great idea (we'd need two though, as here at least, they take your maternity notes away and give you new postnatal ones)

As has been said more than once, my DH, parents, PILs and children are all perfectly nice and polite. Hey, so is the takeaway guy. Doesnt mean they should have unlimited access to a hospital ward, the women are there because they are recovering from giving birth.

And regarding no access to medical records, my PN notes were kept on the end of my bed, containing the ins and outs of my labour and my existing medical information. Does that not count as my medical records, just because it doesnt detail my ENT history as a child?

Who are the big companies that use bounty? Is it worth speaking to them about the unethicalness (if that were a word) of sending a sales rep round a postnatal ward. All these big companies like to pretend they're ethical, don't they!

I remember sudocrem (over two pregnancies I've had so many pots that I've never needed to buy any!) pampers (the nappy), huggies (wipes), johnsons (wipes), dettol (spray), persil (washing tablets) fairy (washing tablets), comfort (fabric softener), bepanthan (cream)

I always got loads of crap from La Redoute in mine

Telegraph article reporting Queens defense of the Bounty practice (in Bogey's link above) ends by saying that funds received from Bounty have gone towards purchase of new equipment, including a new birthing pool.

Well, I was fortunate to have DD in a birthing pool in hospital and I don't see it as a nice optional extra but as essential hospital equipment, as necessary for those women for whom a water-birth is helpful as an anaesthetist is for those women having their babies by C section (And less expensive)

Essential hospital equipment should be provided by the hospital and directly from government support (through our taxes if you like)
If extra resources are needed, such as perhaps spare supplies of newborn nappies or such-like I'd rather see these provided by charities or volunteers

I dont know about the bumpf, I threw all mine straight in the recycling!

I have had 5 children, and have never seen a bounty rep in my life.The midwives asked you if you wanted to fill out a form to get a bounty box and that was it.Also thel ocal rag would do a photo of you and your baby for free , to publish in the 'births' section of the paper.But again the midwife asked you if you wanted it first, and only then was the photographer brought in.
Also nobody but husbands allowed to visit a woman in the 24 houts after CS not even parents and siblings

As I said above it is a question of trade off - funds from bounty against disruption to mothers. I don't think postal marketing is a problem or being able of you choose to collect a bounty pack from a GP is a problem but having these people on the wards even if only 1 in 10 of them is pushy is described above is unacceptable.

On data protection law in my view you have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you are drugged up and in a hospital bed and are not giving any kind of implied consent that when you are asleep a Bounty person can sneak in and photograph your child without your permission (example above). I expect she deleted the photo on request but even so the taking of it would breach the rights unless it were made clear on the ward that the Bounty people may be in to take pictures of your child even if you are unconscious and to let them know if you do not consent. I bet they don't do that in private hospitals with famous people in who have sold pictures of the newborn for £100k to Hello! magazine. Yes, invasive commercial outside visitors when you are bleeding and in pain who yo do not want around might well be a Human Rights breach of some kind too.

I never knew you got CB forms from Bounty. I always had to get someone to get one from the post office for me for the children. That may be because I had 6 hour transfers from hospital (home after 6 hours) and one birth at home so did not have a stay in hospital - thankfully so avoided all this awful stuff.