Why are Londoners so child un-friendly ??

[unhappyinlondon]

I have become so frustrated with trying to make friends with other parents since my DS was born that I thought I would try and may be find some answers on this website.

DS is now 13 months old and despite numerous attempts to find friends, companions, coffee mates, etc. by various means (this website, other websites, toy libraries, NCT, etc) I have totally failed.

I am a very extroverted, happy, smiley individual with an absolutely adorable, gorgeous, smiley and happy 13 month old son. So what's wrong ?

Two recent experiences, I went to a baby birthday party at the invitation of a mother I had met through this website who had her own established mother & baby group - DH, DS and I arrived all happy and jolly thinking we would all have a good time. The hostess greets us, shows us the kitchen, says help yourself to drinks and that's that. She doesn't even bother to introduce us to her husband or parents, DH, DS and I are left sitting in a corner, no one talks to us, people stare at our baby, and that's that. We feel so uncomfortable we leave after 10 mins. flat.

Second example, I went to a local toy library, a well-known and popular one frequented by many local mums with babies and toddlers, no one talks to us, although I try to open up conversations with a few of the mothers, one mother nearly treads on DS's little fingers while he is crawling, and then looks down towards him in total horror as though it's his fault for getting in the way. DS tries to grab another mother's handbag from a chair (he does the same to my hand bag at home, loves to pull everything out and then put them back inside again). I stop son from grabbing woman's handbag and I look at her and say jokingly with a huge smile "he loves handbags" - she looks back at me with a horrid angry face as though DS has done something awful - he is only 13 months old for God's sake !

I have lived in the UK and another European country since 1977. I have lived in London for over 14 years. I have a British passport and so does DS. We are white caucasians (sorry to bring up the subject of race) and I have a "posh" British accent due to private education here in the UK. I live in an affluent part of London, i.e. I am just trying to say that physically and in other respects we do not stand out from our London neighbours.

But experiences like these since DS was born make me feel like an outcast. I have made two relatively good friendships with women from my ante natal clases, but due to travel distance I hardly ever see them now.

I am so unhappy, I keep planning to leave the UK for somewhere more child friendly. But DH has work commitments here and this fact stops us from leaving.

Does anyone else have similar experiences ??

unhappyinlondon, I'm foreign as well, and more outgoing than most Brits. But I find this makes things easier, as people accept me behaving "oddly" on the grounds I'm foreign ... oh, but you say you have a British accent - that may just be your problem. If you're not following the rules, but you look and sound as if you should follow the rules, you may be confusing people.

(As a North American, I feel I can do just about anything, and people will just think it's normal for where I'm from. I suspect people who are, say, African, or Asian, do not get the same "foreigner" exemption from normal behaviour, unfortunately.)

At any rate, if you live in an area with lots of other foreigners, it might be easier? I'm only now really getting used to being friends with British women, and even so, many of my friends are German/French/whatever. Or used to living elsewhere.

NQC - yes you are right. I sound and look British (I am white) - the only thing that gives me away is my name. In a social gathering I am very friendly, bubbly, jokey, etc. Yes, that may be interpreted as "in your face". I have had similar problems on a different front throughout my life in the UK, British men have always interpreted my friendliness as "flirtation" !!

I remember a very pretty Norwegian girl who had just moved over to London to my university. She approached me very upset on day because she had asked some bloke to go and have a beer with her after the lecture, and he had almost jumped on her thinking she was actually saying "let's go to bed" - she explained that in Norway it was normal for a woman to ask a man out on a friendly, no sex beer trip !! I have experienced similar things myself at work and at university and heard similar stories from all sorts of foreign women new to the UK.

I am most certainly not naive and having lived here long enough I understand all this - but it certainly does not make life any easier. I too have always found it easier to talk to the "foreigners" because they are so relaxed. I remember meeting some lovely Italian women at university one day - within 5 mins. of knowing each other they had invited me round to their flat for an Italian meal and hugged and kissed when it was time to say goodbye.

I guess this is what I am like too which is what makes me unhappy at the moment. I have never tried to deliberately go after the foreigners, but I guess I have no choice now. I don't want my son to be all alone until he is 3 and it's time to go to nursery.

I live in the Barnet area.

Oooh, I know someone who's moving to Barnet this week, with a nearly-3-year-old son. They're only going to be there for another couple of months, I think, but they're looking for contacts. They're American. CAT me, and I'll try to get you in touch with them if you like.

The problem with choosing foreigners is that they often move away.

There may be a way around your problem. Is there any way you could dress or change how you look to look more ... foreign? I know it's a daft solution, but I just find that British people are fine with me being strange and foreign as long as they know I'm foreign. Ok, I'm probably less forward than you (I don't want to hug people! Well, kids are nice, but not grownups.), but being foreign just makes it all a lot easier.

That being said, it has taken a while before I've been particularly close with English mums.

One thing that really helped was going to a childcare co-op, where we all did shifts. That way, I got to know lots of other mums, and their kids, in a fairly structured environment.

Another thing that really helps, I find, is to assume that whatever people are up to is nothing to do with you. If someone's distracted and doesn't say "hi", it's probably because they're tired, or trying to chase after their kids. It's unlikely to be a snub.

I say this particularly because I can imagine myself doing what that hostess you described did. I'm not always that attentive to guests, I do expect them to just figure stuff out, I'm normally busy chasing after kids and sorting out food. (DH is better with guests, really.)

This means most of the birthday parties at our house consist of distinct clusters of parents who already know each other. When I've had guests who didn't know anyone, I've spent time with them myself, but not for the entirety of the party.

I was in a similar situation here in Spain and it is very difficult to break into an exsisting community. I have found that generally I have become friendly with other northern europeans. My best friend is German. Language here obviously plays a part but even my friend who is Australian and has lived here for 15 years doesnt really feel she has broken into the community. It takes time and I remember feeling low and I met my bf in the park and then at a later date in Macdonalds. We were talking about it the other day and she said she thought I was quite distant and I thought she was quite nosey. Anyway we are the best of friends now and we had to take a bit of time to get to know each other. Another great friend of mine, a Canadian had real trouble when she first came to London because of cultural differences, I couldnt stand her. She was too in your face but again over time we got to know each other and we have been friends for over 10 years. keep trying, keep your chin up and things will turn out fine.

Well, glad to hear it's not just me then !

I am not the sort to give up easily. I have just joined a breastfeeding group - I don't know the mums well enough yet, but perhaps I will meet some like-minded mothers eventually.

There is the well known "when in Rome..." etc, but as I say I quite like my bubbly personality and I really don't want to tone it down in order to fit in.

NQC - I like the try to look foreign idea ! But with all the women wearing gypsy kaftan stuff these days that seems quite funny ! Even the English are trying to look foreign all the time it seems (half the English women at my university where I did my Masters Degree always wore Indian-looking clothes and jewelry) - so even trying to look foreign these days is going to make me look like the English - funny that isn't it

unhappyinlondon, if you had turned up at a baby party I was hosting, I really might not have got round to talking to you for 10 minutes, no matter how much I liked you. Your host did greet you, tell you to help yourself to drinks, so you were not ignored. I know you say your host did not look busy and she was chatting to other friends, but you can only guess what the social dynamics were. Perhaps the conversation was a tricky one and it was difficult for her to break it off right them. Also, she might have been waiting for you to settle yourselves in her home, get yourselves drinks, make sure your baby was happy etc before rushing up and demanding your attention. Perhaps she wanted to discretly ask you how you wanted to be introduced to the rest of the party - would you really want to be introduced as a person she had met in an internet discussion room? Not everyone would choose this.

I know what it's like to walk into a room full of strangers and realise you don't fit in. Perhaps this was the case..... but you did already know this woman from mumsnet so you must have had something in common? Also, she made that leap from virtual life to real life. She let you see her home, friends and family. That's a lot of giving and trust IMO. If for one minute she thought you would come onto mumsnet to criticise her hospitality after a 10 minute test, do you think she would have extended that invite to you? Why have you chosen to mention this woman is a mumsnetter on mumsnet itself? You could have easily posted about this issue but glossed over this fact.

It's one thing saying London is a child unfriendly place, but do you think this feeling is taking over a bit? If you assume this is always the case, if you don't approach social situations with an open mind, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as you won't be giving people the benefit of the doubt.

As I am not 'foreign' I can't put myself in your shoes. I am really sorry you feel so unhappy. I know I did feel alienated when I went to baby groups (I didn't got to many though). They just weren't my thing, though. I only made friends with parents once my sons started school and then it took several years. All the shared school activities, playdates etc help get friendships off the ground IME. And when your children are old enough to not need your constant attention, it's much easier to strike up meaningful conversations with other parents.

I'm foreign too uil, but I quite like the English reserve, especially that people aren't nosey or forever asking personal questions. My ds is about the same age as yours and I've only had him since the end of April (we're adopting him) so I've only recently started going to groups and meeting other mothers.

I found that for the first 3 or so times at any group I didn't talk that much to other mothers, but I smiled and asked the usual "how old is your child" type questions and told every parent that their child was adorable, but it was literally one or two sentences and then they would talk to someone else. Then once people started to recognise me they got much more chatty.

I think there are several reasons for this reticence, firstly it gives them a chance to size you up a little and make sure you're not somebody totally tiresome that it might be difficult to shake off (you know the "anything your child can do mine did much earlier" type). Secondly, the initial, getting-to-know-you chit chat is very boring and repetitive and they can probably have a more enjoyable conversation with their friends that follows on from the last time they met. Thirdly, if you keep showing up then it shows that you intend to keep showing up IYKWIM and therefore you are someone worth getting to know (this is especially true in London when you can get along very well with someone and then never see that person ever again).

Hang in there, I think the idea about classes/organised activities is good. Do things the English way, after you've all been doing classes for a few weeks say "we all ought to go for coffee after class sometime", let that sink in for a week or two and you might actually go for coffee, and then it might become regular. Be yourself, but perhaps just in smaller doses. Keep your topics of conversation reasonably neutral and give the other person plenty of time to speak. Don't volunteer your life story, or too much personal information as the other person may feel under pressure to reciprocate. Try to make lots of aquaintances and friendships might eventually grow from that.

I'm sure you'll be fine, you sound like someone who would be a great friend.

if only I'd read all this advice 10 years ago!!!! unhappyinlondon, I often feel very much like you
there's a lot of great advice on here, I'm going to put it into practice, I hope you do too. I'm not in London sadly, otherwise would have offered to meet up.

uil, i'm from your part of london too (woodside park) in chicago until end of september when i return if you still need some friends we could meet up (i've a dd 3.5 and a ds 7 months)

it's a right royal pain in the bum, all this british reserve stuff. You might have more luck trying to meet up with an expat crowd of some kind seeing as you are in London and there will be lots of international groups etc around.
I don't know about all this sitting back, smiling stuff either, it seems you might have to do that for about 30 years to get accepted some places I 've lived in. As the newcomer, it's up to you to do all the running - some people might find it pushy, but in the long run it will get you further. Also, have you tried telling people how you feel (without sounding too needy) - nice people will respond to that.
Hope it all works out.

Morocco - I totally agree that if you sit back and just smile at people it will take you years to get to know people. That is why I have tried to take the initiative at some places, but it has kind of backfired. But as I say I haven't given up yet. I am not the shy sort and it's very difficult for someone who is not shy to all of a sudden become a wall flower !!

My son isn't shy either judging by the way he babbles away and smiles and even wants to be held by complete strangers in supermarkets, so I can't really teach him to stay back and let others approach him first - in fact I am happy that he is so lively and outgoing. I think kids like that generally do quite well in life and are also good at sticking up for themselves.

Tigermoth - I am afraid you have been very harsh in your judgment of me without seeing the full picture. Yes, I have described a particular scenario from my point of view. But in fact I had invited that particular MN member to my home many weeks before she invited me. I had extended my hospitality and generosity in my own home long before she reciprocated. The difference is I took her in with open arms. Yes, perhaps she didn't have enough time for my family - but as I say you don't know the full story and I don't wish to say any more.

Also, I did not reveal the identity of that individual, did I ? I wasn't trying to "name and shame". She is in fact living abroad now and no longer uses this website. I didn't start the thread in order to have a go at any particular individual. I simply made some generalisations and gave that as an example of my particular situation. That is all.

Any way, this has become a very interesting thread and I will be using some of the excellent advice given.

Give unhappy a break, she came on here for advice and support! She is getting things off her chest thats all! And as we all know being a newbie is hard work! Although we don't want to put down our fellow mums, we all know that cliques exist who are not particularly easy to penetrate, and we no doubt have all been guilty of being in one!!!!

Bran's final paragraph of advice is SO TRUE, we british are so non-commital, you say 'we should get our kiddies together, they play so well' and then it does not happen for another 2-4 weeks! I can look back now and laugh.

Also check out your local NCT group, they run mums only social events as well as baby ones. It might be easier to get to know other mums this way as you can relax a bit more and not have to chase your kiddie half way through a conversation!

unhappyinlondon, I'm sorry you feel got at - I was putting myself in your hostesses shoes, as best I could, given the facts in your first message. But now I know more, I still feel you should have given her more than 10 minutes to show you hospitality (unless you really couldn't stand her). I do think you cut off the chance to have a friendship with her or at least part on good terms.

If she had visited your home already, you must have had time to suss her out a bit? You must have liked her enough to accept her invite to her baby's birthday party? She must have liked you enough to invite you over in the first place. After all, she had already met you once.

You say you got the invite weeks after she came to your house. I don't know if that upset you but IME it's a very normal time lapse. It might be that she is very busy and/or doesn't see friends that often.

I take it you don't want her as a friend now - I know I don't know the full story, but I hope she doesn't find this thread. You say she is living abroad and won't be using mumsnet any more - not sure why you say this. Anyway, here's hoping you're right.

UIL - I hate to think of anyone being unhappy, and especially not being able to enjoy thier time as the mum of a I year old - but reading yor thread, before I got to Tigermoth's post, I thought '10 minutes - you only stayed 10 minutes!'. Sorry, but in a party situation, you have to be able to take a certain amount od responsibility for chatting to others and giving some time to 'settle in'. It isn't as if you were ALONE - you had your DH with you, so no need to feel like a lost lemon with no-one to talk to. If someone came ot a b'day party at my house, I probably would not be as hospitable as I would like to be, but I would, honestly, be a bit offended if someone didn't stay even 10 minutes!
Are you feeling very homesick (which is understandable) and 'blaming' it on London and Londoners? Would it help to find a circle of friends from the same country as you to share experiences with?

well i did try to be friendly but where did it get me , not even an acknowledgement of my offer

chicagomum - I am really sorry - but I do not wish to meet anyone else from MN because I have been unfairly criticised for my description of a MN-related meeting.

Many thanks for your offer any way.

YOu are tarring all with the same brush UHIL, think this through!

Most of my aquaintances at baby group are not english they are bulgarian, ukranian, afghanistani indian etc. I live in Barking where there is a great diversity as it is cheap to live and foreigners tend to gravitate towards it. I have very poor relations with these people though and am only close to one person in the group so far. I too am lonely here in Loondon. If natives brits do come to our baby group they are unsociable and never return after the initial go!

I must be very dumb - I don't get this thread at all. You say Londoners are unfriendly, so someone offers to meet up with you - and you say 'no thanks, I don't want to'? In fact, three people have offered. What am I missing here?

I'm sorry you've had a couple of bad experiences, and I know how unpleasant it is to feel lonely but...nope, sorry, still not getting it.

snafu - I am sorry you don't get it. Yes, I still maintain that Londoners are unfriendly, the English in particular. I say this after many, many years of life in the UK. It was the same when I worked and the same when I was at university. I always ended up with the foreigners because they were and are more approachble and open than the average English person. If you wish to dispute this, fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

If you read my original post you will see that I was trying to find out whether others have had similar experiences to mine. I wasn't requesting a meet up. If I had been, I would have put the post under the title "meet ups".

I have no interest in meeting others through this website. I have tried several times before and it's been unpleasant every time, and no I am NOT saying that everyone on this website is unfriendly. I think I have just been particulary unlucky.

I do not wish to expose my identity by meeting anyone else here, as I have been criticised on this thread for leaving a party after 10 mins. (in fact I think it was more like 30 mins., but it was so unpleaseant I can't recall exactly how long I was there).

I didn't post for symapthy or friendship. It was purely posed as a question to find out whether others are having a similar experience.

The fact that some other mothers ARE having a similar experience is interesting. That is all I was trying to find out.

I hope that clarifies it for you ?

But how helpful is it finding out that some other people are having similar bad experiences to you? Surely what you want to do is to have better experiences and a lot of people have said a lot of things that could point you in that direction. It seems your more keen to find evidence to back up your own negative views than in getting onto a more positive track. The thing is, there is no single truth about London - it's neither a friendly nor an unfriendly place, it's a huge city stuffed full of people from all over the world. Your own individual experience of it says more about you and the way you feel inside, than about external reality. My own world view has changed massively for the better in recent years and espeically since having children, funnily enough. Seven or eight years ago I would have agreed with you about London, but now I don't see it that way at all. Maybe you could benefit from counselling (as I did) to help you find out how your internal world is spoiling your experience of life