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Not in the nativity play

226 replies

PrettyHannukahndles · 15/12/2004 16:58

As ds is being brought up Jewish, I chose not to have him perform in his nursery's nativity play next week, but to let him perform in the rest of the nursery's concert. I've learned today that he is now the only child who will not be in the nativity, as all the other non-performing children will not be at nursery that day.

Suddenly he feels left out. I had a talk with the nursery staff, who told me that he needn't come in uniform that day, as all the others would be wearing their costumes. I suggested that he might like to wear a costume as well, so that he will feel more involved. But what sort of costume could he wear? He wants to wear a red-and-white Santa hat with flashing stars (at least, that's what I think he meant by his rather garbled and excited description ). I'm not sure whether that's appropriate - could anyone suggest something?

OP posts:
aloha · 16/12/2004 22:16

Yingers, I'm certainly no expert! Just quite interested in the history of things, including ideas and religions. I don't dance naked at the time of the full moon or anything
BTW I think it is very different being involved in the secular aspects of a celebration than the overtly religious aspects. As an atheist I'm not really comfortable with ds being forced to 'pray' in assembly. I would let him do it if the alternative was his feeling different or left out, but would be OK with telling him that God isn't real... and yes, I know that offends some people, but I hold my belief as strongly as anyone else holds religious beliefs.

aloha · 16/12/2004 22:17

Spacedonkey - um, but that is exactly what happened in the case of Christianity. They took the dates of pre-existing pagan festivals and overlaid them with Christianity. It isn't a coincidence.

aloha · 16/12/2004 22:18

And the rites too - hence the church people telling kids that eggs at Easter are somehow Christian, when they are very much not.

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:18

doesn't invalidate it .. but 'christ' wasn't born on December 25th

he was born in the Jewish calendar .. which does not match with the calendar we follow .. which is why the dates of jewish festivals change during the year

they chose the midwinter to celebrate 'christ's birth' partly as a recruitment drive amongst the natives

sorry but its true historcially

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:18

doesn't invalidate it .. but 'christ' wasn't born on December 25th

he was born in the Jewish calendar .. which does not match with the calendar we follow .. which is why the dates of jewish festivals change during the year

they chose the midwinter to celebrate 'christ's birth' partly as a recruitment drive amongst the natives

sorry but its true historcially

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:20

Fair enough, I'm no expert on this, and a complete heathen to boot. Interesting discussion though.

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:21

"When Jesus was born the shepherds were tending their flocks in the fields- so says Lk 2:8. In Palestine the best time for tending sheep is in February-March. Some, therefore, think that Jesus was born at this time. There are certain Christian churches that celebrate Christmas on March 25th. "

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:22

ahem, don't sheep have to be tended all year round?

moondog · 16/12/2004 22:23

Well, I'm no religous maniac but I don't think we should be picking and choosing which bits of religous festivals to get in on. They are serious things and it's all or nothing IMO.
There are some things from other cultures that I will participate in (eg when a student in London, went to the mosque with Muslim friends out of interest) but with other stuff I back off completely (eg obviously not going to actually worship in the mosque.)

I just think we should fully weigh up the implications of this stuff-too many of us are indeed having our cake and eating it.

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:23

dunno much about sheep I'm afraid donkey

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:24

do you buy christmas presents moondog?

do you have a tree?

do you go to church every Sunday?

do you go to midnight mass?

don't know what denomination / religion you are but I bet that you pick and choose which parts you take on board

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:27

Is there anything actually wrong with having your cake and eating it?

Cinderellascarrieg · 16/12/2004 22:28

Sorry moondog - I know your question was directed at PHC, BUT I'm happy to be excluded from Christian festivities because I feel that they are utter bunk - I don't go out of my way to insult Christians with my opinions but nonetheless I do hold them quite strongly!

However, I'm an adult & have long since made my own mind up. If I - or PHC, or anyone else uncomfortable with religious observance in school - withdraw our child, what the child is likely to remember most vividly (at least, from my own experience) is being excluded.

It's not a comfortable situation to be in, & it's up to parents in this boat to decide for themselves. There isn't an easy answer! But it's a bit harsh to suggest that it's 'having your cake & eating it'...

Apologies in advance for any offence caused

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:29

Don't see the point in having a cake and not eating it actually

what else would you do with a cake???

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:29

twig

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 16/12/2004 22:30
Grin
Cinderellascarrieg · 16/12/2004 22:30

You could always throw the cake at me

Tinker · 16/12/2004 22:30

Well, if you're not religious, surely you can just pick and choose which bits of religious festivals you wanted to take part in. Since all of them have no meaning to me.

aloha · 16/12/2004 22:31

Well, IMO how serious they are depends on how much you believe. And it also depends on your definition of a religious festival. I've said why I feel perfectly happy about being an atheist who celebrates Christmas and Easter (ie both festivals predate the Christian versions). Would also happily watch Diwali fireworks, for example, or eat a meal with jewish friends, or attend a Spanish saints day street festival and stuff like that.

moondog · 16/12/2004 22:32

Well yes Twigleet, I've always thought that too!

Studied Comparitive Religion at uni (amongst other stuff).Just get the uneasy feeling that none of us of whatever faith are treating our religions with the reverence they deserve.

Just been to the supermarket-full of Christmas stuff! What's that all about in this part of Turkey??!!

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:33

exactly tinker

I must say, if I was jewish and as such believed jesus to have been a heretic, and I was bringing my children up in accordance with those beliefs, I would either send them to a jewish school or keep them out of school for such things as a nativity play

aloha · 16/12/2004 22:33

I know my child will have to take part in some kind of religious observance at school as it is the law (one I disagree with but the law nonetheless) and like Carrie and PHC, I don't want him to feel different or left out, so won't withdraw him from assembly. I really don't think there is anything remotely wrong in that.

Cinderellascarrieg · 16/12/2004 22:34

Yeah, but whilst I'm fully in accord with you on the 'pagans had it first/most cultures have a winter knees up' view, Aloha, that still leaves the 'taking part in very specifically Xtian acts of worship ie. Nativity Play or Carol Concert' problem?

Cinderellascarrieg · 16/12/2004 22:35

sorry x posted!

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:35

neither do I, and it's never bothered me one jot when my children have taken part in nativities etc. They've learned about various religions (none of which we adhere to) and if they ever want to make up their own mind to follow a particular religion, good luck to em.