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Original poster

Not in the nativity play

226 replies

PrettyHannukahndles · 15/12/2004 16:58

As ds is being brought up Jewish, I chose not to have him perform in his nursery's nativity play next week, but to let him perform in the rest of the nursery's concert. I've learned today that he is now the only child who will not be in the nativity, as all the other non-performing children will not be at nursery that day.

Suddenly he feels left out. I had a talk with the nursery staff, who told me that he needn't come in uniform that day, as all the others would be wearing their costumes. I suggested that he might like to wear a costume as well, so that he will feel more involved. But what sort of costume could he wear? He wants to wear a red-and-white Santa hat with flashing stars (at least, that's what I think he meant by his rather garbled and excited description ). I'm not sure whether that's appropriate - could anyone suggest something?

OP posts:
spacedonkey · 15/12/2004 18:47

No, I am wrong, this is what wikipedia has to say:

"A Jew who ceases to practice Judaism is still considered a Jew, as is a Jew who does not accept Jewish principles of faith and becomes an agnostic or an atheist; so too with a Jew who converts to another religion. However, in the latter case, the person loses standing as a member of the (practicing) Jewish community and becomes known as an apostate in said community, though this might not affect his standing with non-practising Jews. In the past, family and friends would often formally mourn for the person, though this is rarely done today."

So you're right aloha, although it would be pretty weird!

TheHollyAndTheTwiglett · 15/12/2004 18:47

Sorry Aloha .. pet nark when growing up that one

"Oh but I thought you were British" grrrrrrrr

aloha · 15/12/2004 18:53

Oh, they are all terribly, terribly British!! Esp my posh friend.

motherinfestivemood · 15/12/2004 19:44

I told my dd1 a kind of de-Christianised Nativity - in terms of a winter festival, and the birth of a baby as a story very much linked to the ending of one year and the beginning of another. Stressed the lights and greenery and feasting a lot.

Hilariously enough, I've just been thinking 'Miriam2, aren't you Jewish?' before remembering that in fact both my own non-Jewish daughters have emphatically Jewish names.

Original poster
PrettyHannukahndles · 16/12/2004 14:42

That's interesting, spacedonkey, because I thought that the only way a Jew can lose their 'Jewishness' was by converting. What is wikipedia? I must have a look.

I used to get that 'I thought you were British' too - which is actually quite funny, because I think of myself as British, but am not English (born abroad, non-British parents, etc). Just showed ignorance I thought. But there are relatively few Jews in the UK. Whether or not you meet or get to know any depends on where you live, I suppose, so I shouldn't have been surprised at that attitude.

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spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 14:45

Perhaps it is inaccurate, I must say I was surprised too PHC. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia

bundleofyulelogs · 16/12/2004 14:46

wikipedia is an online encyclopaedia, but none of its content is "checked" or verified..

lisalisa · 16/12/2004 15:09

Message withdrawn

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 15:10

i'd keep him off too

lisalisa · 16/12/2004 15:17

Message withdrawn

Original poster
PrettyHannukahndles · 16/12/2004 15:21

Hi LL, lovely to meet you, shame we didn't get a chance to talk properly, but it was a great and interesting evening.

Because dh isn't Jewish, it wouldn't have been fair we felt to exclude ds from the 'do'. In previous years there hasn't been anything particularly Christian in it, apart from one or two carols, so we were quite surprised at the proper nativity planned for this year.

I don't want to withdraw ds at this late stage anyway, as he has been practising his songs for the concert bit and is looking forward to it.

OP posts:
aloha · 16/12/2004 15:25

Time to find that armadillo costume then

lisalisa · 16/12/2004 15:26

Message withdrawn

Original poster
PrettyHannukahndles · 16/12/2004 21:04

I've checked with the nursery staff, and they're happy with a flashing Santa hat. On further discussion with ds, we have settled on a flashing Santa hat and a tinsel-covered waistcoat.

Ds is far more concerned with being dressed smartly than with the make-believe of dressing-up!

As for the religious aspects...well, it's always going to be tricky for us. It's much easier if both parents are of the same faith, and even if on parent couldn't care less about religion (eg my dh) there are all sorts of cultural issues to overcome. Dh thinks of Christmas as a cultural festivity, he personally does not connect it with Christianity (even though he knows the connection).

Even more confusing for him is that until we had children I would quite happily go to carol concerts and join in (and I knew more hymns and carols than he did! ). But then I had a Jewish education and I don't get confused.

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yingers74 · 16/12/2004 21:25

Oh dear this thread has become a bit serious! I am chinese, brought up with buddhist leanings!!! And my dh is jewish although not practising. I know someone who is a jew who believes in jesus, but is definitely jewish and she celebrates all the festivals etc, I don't think she or her friends with similar beliefs think they are 'mixed up'. I don't think our dd will be brought up with a particular religion but we are happy for her to take part in traditions from both our faiths and cultures as well as others including the nativity play, she recently played a star! I feel that enjoying the traditions of another faith/culture does not mean that you are rejecting your own, surely this is what a multi-cultural society is about? I hope I have not offended anyone as that is not my intention .

Original poster
PrettyHannukahndles · 16/12/2004 21:34

I'm not offended by what you've said, Yingers, but I'm sure my response will offend some people. There is a world of a difference between enjoying traditions from other cultures and faiths (which certainly don't imply that one is rejecting one's own), and being brought up in a particular faith. After all bringing a child up in a faith is deliberate brainwashing (this is what I'm sure will offend). And until the brainwashing has 'taken' it is counter-productive to over-expose the child to other faiths. In our multi-cultural world I think it is very important to experience other faiths, but that needs to be within the secure framework of one's own faith.

I suppose it's the difference between being brought up 'with a knowledge of' xyz faith, and being brought up in xyz faith.

OP posts:
Original poster
PrettyHannukahndles · 16/12/2004 21:35

Oh, and I don't mean to offend deliberately, either. Just stating that I know that some people will find my view offensive - which I accept.

OP posts:
wordsmith · 16/12/2004 21:49

Reading through this thread has been fascinating (sorry PHK I know it was your question that started it and I'm not really going to answer it but...) It has made me realise just how embedded a Christian festival has become in a country which is essentially non-religious. there was an article in the paper earlier this week about a survey which found that more than a quarter of those polled did not know that Jesus was born in Belthehem (20% of churchgoers didn't know either) and 25% didn't know Jesus was Jewish! How many children taking part in the school nativity play can relate to any of the events and understand what they are really about? Especially when most adults don't celebrate the birth of christ at Christmas at all. Santa has more relevance than christ to children these days. I wish it didn't have to be that way, but it is easier to explain to a small child about a fat man coming down the chimney and leaving presents than about a man who was nailed to a cross so that we could all be saved. It's hard enough for anyone to understand. I have tried to explain it to my 4 year old (I'm a non-churchgoer since the age of 16 but still 'believe' in the vague, wishy washy way many people do) as I would like him to know that Christmas isn't all about eating, drinking and getting presents. I am planning to take him to a carol service this year to give him some idea, then gradually make sure over the next few years that he knows what he's celebrating, even if he doesn't believe in it himself.

Cinderellascarrieg · 16/12/2004 21:56

Hmmm...fascinating thread!

I'm generally anti religious observance in schools & nurseries (views coloured by being sent to scary nun-led RC primary by arsily atheist father & wishy-washy CofE mother, & the resultant colourful rows as I regularly told my teachers 'My dad says you're full of sh*t!')

Dh & I were just having a discussion about the views here (he's Buddhist, I'm atheist) & decided that ds would be best off taking part in whatever's going, simply because I remember all too well feeling 'singled out' as one Muslim girl, one Jewish boy & I were excluded from Xmas festivities. Can't pretend I'm AT ALL comfortable with it tho'

aloha · 16/12/2004 22:00

Well, of course Christmas isn't really a Christian festival at all - it's a pagan one, hijacked by Christians who realised that depriving people of their favourite winter festival of light, eating and drinking wouldn't be a good way of launching a recruitment drive. So I am perfectly happy to be an atheist who celebrates Christmas, and of course, it can very well be argued that eating, drinking and turning the heating up is the real meaning of Christmas!

Cinderellascarrieg · 16/12/2004 22:02

Couldn't agree more Aloha...

aloha · 16/12/2004 22:05

Took ds to a church playgroup last Easter (not for Easter though) and they asked why we had eggs at Easter...and proceeded to tell us it was about the rebirth of mankind due to the sacrifice of Jesus. I had to really bite my lip hard not to say, "No actually, it's about the Northern European pagan goddess Oestre", and launch into stuff about hares who were believed to lay eggs, and spring fertility rites and how this is linked to the Easter Bunny etc etc!

yingers74 · 16/12/2004 22:09

aloha - are you an expert on all things pagan?

moondog · 16/12/2004 22:11

PHK, you talk about the fact that Jews for Jesus
'piss you off' because they want to have their cake and eat in in terms of being involved in both Jewish and Christian rites.

Isn't having ytour cake and eating it exactly what you want to do here? You are letting your child be involved in some aspects of the celebration and not others, obviously don't want him to be left out, are trying to find him a costume to wear and so on.

Surely this exclusion is the price you pay for your Jewish faith and is something that you and your family must learn to live with in the same way that I, a Christian woman living in v v v conservative Eastern Turkey have to live with many asp;ects of life here, from the trivial (hardly any booze to be found) to the more serious (ie. was definitely NOT a part of the recent Bayram festivities)?

My parents have the same experince living and working in Saudi.

spacedonkey · 16/12/2004 22:14

As far as I can gather, many religions have feast days that coincide with the solstices and equinoxes. In the winter you have the pagan saturnalia, christian christmas, hindu diwali and jewish chanukah. I don't think it necessarily follows that the religions have hijacked pagan festivals and are therefore somehow invalid though.