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Multicultural families

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Original poster

Muslim DH, just had DS. I don't want to circumcise

197 replies

LittleMissRayofHope · 09/02/2015 18:48

I don't want to do it.
I don't see the need or point.
As far as I am concerned it is a completely unneeded surgical procedure that removes a part of my sons body without his consent.
DH does want it done though.

There is a likely split up on the near horizon as well and I'm worried that even if I refuse he could just do it during contact one time. He is on both cert and as its a private procedure he wouldn't need my consent would he?

OP posts:
Hakluyt · 14/02/2015 14:44

The mother's opinion in this case is more important because she does not want to make a permanent, non medically necessary surgical change to a person unable to give consent.

Blu · 14/02/2015 17:09

"Can anyone explain why the mother's opinions are more important than the father's here?"
Because the mother's opinion is in line with leaving things as they are, rather than making an intervention
Because as was said below, a circumcision cannot be reversed but a future decision can be made to circumcise - so her opinion does not shut down choice, his does.
Because the mother's opinion allows the child to make his own decision in due course
Because if you read some of the OP's other threads he is bullying, gas lighting, stonewalling, undermines her parenting, and shouts at her abusively in front of their 3 year old dd. She should be able to have a discussion and have her views respected.

I hope you are OK, OP.

NinjaLeprechaun · 15/02/2015 01:20

I can assure you that there is no loss of sensation!
If he had it done when he was a baby then how would he know the difference?

Using culture as an excuse is weak. I live in the US and my step-dad is Jewish - two cultural 'reasons' to have it done. Yet my step-brother is not circumcised.
My ex is circumcised, but when I was pregnant there was no question from either of us that a boy would not be. I believe ex referred to it as 'barbaric'.

For those people citing cleanliness or health benefits; would you have all your children's teeth extracted to prevent cavities, or would you teach them to brush properly?

Yesterday, quite by accident while I was searching for something else, I saw a picture of the results of a botched circumcision on a baby. If I hadn't been against the procedure already then that would have convinced me. It's absolutely not a risk free procedure. Are you really willing to risk your child's life (or penis) for non-medical reasons?

Hakluyt · 15/02/2015 10:09

All the discussion about loss of sensation and all the rest is irrelevant. The only issue is that this is non medically necessary surgery being performed on a person unable to consent. And therefore by definition has to be wrong.

passmethewineplease · 15/02/2015 10:20

Can't believe how many people are saying just do it. Tywy comparing it to breast reduction surgery is stupid. Can you honestly not see the difference?

It's a horrid practice.

Who puts their child through a wholly uncessary medical procedure?

Surely the child should be able to consent to it?

Don't do it OP. Stick to your guns. You say he's not really a practicing Muslim, whybdods he feel the need to cherry pick bits of Islam? Surely you either practice all the teachings or not bother with any at all??

SamG76 · 15/02/2015 18:47

Pass the wine - quite a large proportion of the world practice it, as it happens. As for cherry picking, I know a lot of people who break the speed limit by 10 mph or so, but don't murder. Are they cherry picking? Not really - they just recognise that some rules are more important than others. And for Jews, at least, this one is a biggie. I will defer to experts in Islamic law (rather than browsers of Wikipedia) as to how important it is for Muslims, but the fact there seem to be no Muslims anywhere in the world who don't do it suggests it is quite significant.....

sleeponeday · 15/02/2015 19:19

Sam - and yet my Jewish husband didn't want our son circumcised, because he sees the moral problem with the practice.

All the discussion about loss of sensation and all the rest is irrelevant. The only issue is that this is non medically necessary surgery being performed on a person unable to consent. And therefore by definition has to be wrong.

This.

sleeponeday · 15/02/2015 19:23

Incidentally, Jehovah's Witnesses believe blood transfusions are completely wrong. They'd rather die, quite literally. Yet courts have repeatedly found that children - even young teens - must accept transfusions even when they don't want to if it is medically necessary for them. That's because religion is a matter for the adult individual's conscience, but an adult's religious beliefs and practices cannot be prioritised over a child's physical best interests. And not having an invasive medical procedure, which will always carry some risks, without any medical reason cannot be in their best interests.

SamG76 · 15/02/2015 19:37

Sleepiness you - these are the same courts that have repeated said that circ is legal. And I'm not sure what point your husband is demonstrating. There is no compulsion in religion, and of course he's welcome to give it up. Or are you suggesting that he remains a practising Jew despite his life choices?

Hakluyt · 15/02/2015 19:41

Are you suggesting that he should not remain a practising Jew because he has chosen not to circumcise his son.

sleeponeday · 15/02/2015 19:45

Yes - for now. Be interesting to see if it's still legal for children a century from now; personally, I hope not. Adults naturally should be able to make their own choices.

And nope, no longer observant. Though that has rather more factors than juvenile circumcision involved. Nonetheless I would not have allowed it even if he were religious. I'm afraid I think it's morally wrong to mutilate a baby because of parental belief. That's simply not in the child's best interests, and should be an adult decision - as with female circumcision.

Original poster
LittleMissRayofHope · 15/02/2015 19:51

It has been a sore point of contention for a little while.

I re-iterate: I am not against circumcision generally. I never really had an opinion until I had DS.
Now I feel that it isn't my decision to make.

My DF was done for reasons unknown to me, and he is still angry at his dead parents for robbing him of it. He says he feels it was his penis his choice but it was taken.
I found this after when I called to chat this over so it in no way has changed my mind.

If DS wants it done when he is older then that's fine, I'll stand by and be supportive.

If he NEEDS it done between now and turning 16/18 (whatever the age of medical autonomy will be then) then I'll consent. But I just feel that a) it's not my choice and b) it's my baby!

I originally said it was fine as I had no real feelings due to not having a son. Now I have one I find myself feeling differently.

OP posts:
sleeponeday · 15/02/2015 19:51

Sorry, that wasn't clear - it should never be legal to mutilate a baby but no, FGM is never legal. Obviously FGM is far more severe even when you don't have the worst forms, but then again if adults are prevented from it, why are infants subjected to MGM? Interesting, such a blatant case of what is culturally acceptable and what isn't guiding law. I don't see why genital mutilation is ever really acceptable, tbh, but why are some adults not allowed to choose it, while others are allowed to inflict it on children?

Norland · 15/02/2015 23:17

sleeponeday Sun 15-Feb-15 19:51:43

Obviously FGM is far more severe even when you don't have the worst forms

What a load of fucking shit! You wittering fools who trot this tripe out make me so angry.

CultureSucksDownWords · 16/02/2015 00:34

Norland, what is your point? What's making you angry about that post?

DinosaursStillExist · 16/02/2015 01:01

OP I agree with you that this would be a totally unnecessary procedure to put DS through.

I wonder if those posters citing that it's just a bit of skin and serves no purpose would also not mind if they'd been subjected to clitoral removal as a baby? If someone else had decided that it was perfectly acceptable to remove that part of their body for the purpose of culture or religion?

FoxHugs · 16/02/2015 01:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SamG76 · 16/02/2015 09:42

Foxhugs - shaking with anger? seriously? Good thing you're or MN and not tindr or you would have lined up a set of unsuitable dates Wink. This started off as quite an interesting discussion about cross-cultural issues and the status of promises made before a marriage, but as so often has now descended into "evil mutilator" name calling.

Hakluyt · 16/02/2015 09:50

It's always so much easier for people in favour of infant circumcision to focus on the "evil mutilator" minority than the "you shouldn't perform non medically required body changing surgery on people unable to consent" majority, isn't it?

FragileBrittleStar · 16/02/2015 10:06

DP is circumcised (not ebcasue of his religion but becasue it was done as a matter of course when he was young) - he says he has nothing to compare with so can't comment on whether its less sensitive or not.
DS isn't - I don't think he or DP mind that they don't look the same - DP just is a bit blase about the foreskin - eg if it looks sore he thinks nothing of suggesting we get rid of it - but neither of us would.
I have a friend married to a jewish man - they had agreed before children to have the boys circumcised for cultural reasons- so when they had a son they did. She said it was the worse thing she had ever done - inflicting pain for no reason. However they then went on to have their second son done too- so he looked the same... the mind boggles.

ArcheryAnnie · 16/02/2015 10:17

IMO circumcision for non-medical reasons is generally a terrible idea, but there are some methods of doing it that make it even worse. In some places, it's the norm for the person doing the cut to remove the blood with his mouth. Now, I'd have a hell of a lot to say about a strange man putting my newborn son's penis in his mouth "for religious reasons" anyway, but there is a high risk of transmitting herpes to the baby, too. In New York, where figures are kept on this, a few babies every year are diagnosed with herpes because of this, and some end up with brain damage, or die.

FoxHugs · 16/02/2015 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Italiangreyhound · 18/02/2015 20:14

Hi LittleMissRayofHope how are things going?

Myboy354 · 24/02/2015 16:23

My son was circumcised(due to partner being muslim) u didnt need consent from both parents, i went with my MIL to a clinic & not once did they ask about dh! Although the procedure is daunting it is over in seconds, & doesn't take long to heal! Like you i had doubts & wish he didnt have to have it done but he is the father & id agreed beforehand! I cant imagine a muslim man being ok with his son not being circumcised, itl b like east is east all over again Blush

SirChenjin · 24/02/2015 16:31

And what about the child Myboy - does he get a say in whether or not to have his foreskin cut off? Or the mother (you already said you wished he didn't have to have it done)? Or does some outdated patriarchal cultural practice over rule the wishes of everyone else?

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