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Multicultural families

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Original poster

Muslim DH, just had DS. I don't want to circumcise

197 replies

LittleMissRayofHope · 09/02/2015 18:48

I don't want to do it.
I don't see the need or point.
As far as I am concerned it is a completely unneeded surgical procedure that removes a part of my sons body without his consent.
DH does want it done though.

There is a likely split up on the near horizon as well and I'm worried that even if I refuse he could just do it during contact one time. He is on both cert and as its a private procedure he wouldn't need my consent would he?

OP posts:
BobbyButtons · 09/02/2015 20:57

Please dont do it. Poor child. If he doesn't attend mosque, then I do t see how he can pick and choose which parts he wants to practise

Bonsoir · 09/02/2015 21:00

Circumcision is inconsequential when performed on small babies.

I know (Jewish) adult men who have chosen to be circumcised when their parents had chosen not to. It was agonising for them.

Just do it!

TywysogesGymraeg · 09/02/2015 23:28

People do have breast reductions for cosmetic reasons, yes.
I am married to a circumcised man, who had it done as a baby for medical reasons. I can assure you that there is no loss of sensation!

It really has never been a problem for him - why would it be?

Just get it done while the child knows nothing about it.

CadmiumRed · 09/02/2015 23:36

But the OP doesn't even know if the child will end up as a practising Muslim, so why get any procedure done 'just in case '? And circumcision is not required religiously for Muslims as it is for Jews. 'Oh, just get it done ', why on earth should she?

SamG76 · 10/02/2015 12:41

If it's important to him, then worth bartering for something that's important for you, I would have thought, especially if you suspect he would go and get it done anyway. Is it really worth a court battle? Even if he's not a practising Muslim, just a "hanger on", he will be expected to have had it done, so probably best to get it done as early as possible by someone you approve of in conditions that you consider acceptable....

Pooka · 10/02/2015 12:47

I don't like the idea of using the unnecessary lopping off of a bit of a young baby as a bargaining chip for something unrelated.

Original poster
LittleMissRayofHope · 10/02/2015 12:52

If he wants it done purely so he isn't judged then he should just lie to them.
I can't foresee a situation where his family who are all in a different country and haven't ever met or are likely to meet DS or his friends here will see DS naked and inspect his penis.....

OP posts:
CadmiumRed · 10/02/2015 12:58

But as this thread has demonstrated, he can't just go and get it done without getting into serious tt

CadmiumRed · 10/02/2015 13:02

Sorry, phone posting!
Anyway, he can't just get it done, and actually, if it were my child, I would consider it worth a court battle to not be forced to make a permanent physical change to my baby's genitals. Those of you urging the OP to get on with it, do you feel less anti circumcision than the OP, perhaps? Fine, everyone has their own view, but the OP feels strongly that she does not want it done.

zipzap · 10/02/2015 13:12

There were some studies years ago in the US, where they looked at how much boys and girls cried when they were young babies. They found that overall, boys cried significantly more than the girls.

They then tried to replicate the study in the UK and couldn't - baby boys and girls cried exactly the same amounts.

Somebody then realised that one difference between US baby boys and UK baby boys is that the US babies were circumcised. When they went back and reanalysed the data, they discovered that the uncircumsized boys and the girls cried the same amount overall in their first year. Circumsized boys on the other hand, cried for signficantly more time than the other babies. Which very strongly suggests that it is having a negative effect on the boys in that first year...

I'd second what has been said about getting your feelings regarding the circumcision noted very visibly on your ds's medical notes. It's your ds's body - if he wants to be circumcized when he is older and it hurts more then that's fine - he gets to suffer a bit more for his religion and feel more worthy for it, much better than being circumcised early and never able to undo it.

If you do split up with your dh, I'd also make sure that it is one of the things that is documented by your solicitor. So get it written into the divorce agreement that it shouldn't be done, get a formal letter sent to him that it shouldn't be done and that if it is, you will be reporting him for GBH (or whatever the solicitor says the appropriate charge is) and whatever else they can suggest as safeguards.

I'd also ensure that you have as much evidence as you can get about how many muslim traditions your dh doesn't follow so that you can argue along the lines of why can he choose which traditions to follow or not - this isn't about not eating meat or going to the mosque each week, neither of which will have a permanent effect on your child. This is about unnecessary mutilation of your child and it's absolutely right that your ds should be allowed to make that choice himself once he is an adult.

zipzap · 10/02/2015 13:15

Amazed by the number for people saying to 'just get it done' effectively for an easy life despite the OP saying that it's something she really doesn't want to happen to her ds! ShockSad

ColdCottage · 10/02/2015 13:20

I would also write to and email (belt and braces) all the local faith leaders who might be asked to do this explaining that you do not give consent.

Your DS can have the op as an adult if he chooses to.

SamG76 · 10/02/2015 13:20

Cadmiumred - OP originally agreed to it, so can't be that anti-circ. It sounds as if this is part of a much bigger picture. OP - if you're proposing the sort of split where the father and his family never see your DS, then I can see your point of view, but if you're hoping that he will feel part of DH's family, I think you should back down....

SamG76 · 10/02/2015 13:23

Coldcottage - "local faith leaders" ????? Do you know anything about islam? It's not like writing to the local bishop asking him to put on his vicars on alert....

Showy · 10/02/2015 13:29

These breast reductions done for cosmetic reasons, are they something you force another person to go through to satisfy your own beliefs or are they requested by consenting adults who are fully anaesthetised and mostly due to physical and psychological reasons which necessitate elective surgery? And how do you know there is no loss of sensation if he's never known any difference?

I do not understand circumcision. We would never urge a woman to just get on with chopping off any other part of her baby.

It does not matter if the op had previously said it was okay. She is now faced with the reality of the situation and hard wired to do what is best for her baby. It isn't theory anymore.

HermioneWeasley · 10/02/2015 13:41

I cannot believe posters are saying to get on with it, as though it's inevitable that he'll have parts of his genitals chopped off at some point.

There is no need. Your DS is perfect just as he is. All genital mutilation should be illegal IMO.

Pooka · 10/02/2015 13:44

To be honest, until I had children I wasn't terribly anti circumcision. It wasn't really in my mind a great deal, and in the absence of a real life baby of mine, perfect and whole, it wasn't something I thought about.

Since I've had dcs, and 2 sons, there is no way on earth that I could imagine intentionally inflicting unnecessary suffering on them. Like the op, this is a feeling that has developed since I have had real life boys, foreskins and all.

So agreeing to smothering before having the experience of having a child is not the same as making that decision with the actual baby in front of you.

People can change their minds in the light of fresh information. Rightly so.

Pooka · 10/02/2015 13:45

Something. Not smothering, of course.

SamG76 · 10/02/2015 15:16

Pooka - I'm exactly the opposite. Before I had kids, I was completely against any sort of smacking. Now that I have them, I can completely see how the occasional kick up the backside would do them some good...

I think if you agree to bring up your child as a Muslim, that's what you agreed, and I'm not surprised that OP changing her mind is part of a wider issue with the relationship. The "solution" of having DH lie to his family seems to me to be digging a bigger hole for later....

CultureSucksDownWords · 10/02/2015 15:49

Sam maybe you would like to have a look at this re smacking.

I also think it's reasonable for the OP to change her mind about circumcision now that her DS is actually here. The reality is very different to the theoretical agreement before he was born. Also as others have said, circumcision is not a requirement in Islam, it's more of a cultural norm.

SamG76 · 10/02/2015 16:02

Culture - I should have made it clear that I don't actually kick them, but no longer feel the need to judge people who do smack.

The point about religious/cultural norms is in my view spurious. I've never come across a Muslim family that didn't give its son the snip. I'm not an expert in Islamic law, but if it anything like Jewish law the boundary between law and custom is often extremely blurred. I doubt if you'd find many Muslim clerics in the UK who didn't think you had an obligation to have it done.

DanaBarrett · 10/02/2015 16:14

My goodness, I'm really surprised at this thread. Should the OP get her child's ears pierced as well, while they are young enough not to feel it? It's the same debate, a cosmetic procedure that brings no benefit, and can be done when the child is old enough to consent. It's his body, let him decide!

CultureSucksDownWords · 10/02/2015 16:14

This isn't a Muslim family though, it's a mixed family atheist/Muslim. So whose opinion takes precedence?

I don't think it fair to try and force the OP to be held to the fact she agreed to this before her DS was born. When faced with the reality of her baby in front of her, it's not surprising she doesn't want to allow an unnecessary procedure to remove a body part of her child.

TywysogesGymraeg · 10/02/2015 17:00

It's not HER baby though, is it? Its HIS baby too. The OP agreed with circumscision originally. She's the one who has changed her mind, not the father.

CultureSucksDownWords · 10/02/2015 17:07

Ok, it's their baby, together. But I think it's reasonable to change your mind on an unnecessary operation when faced with your actual baby in front of you. My opinion on this is being coloured by the fact that I would never circumcise any of my children. IMO religion and culture are not reasons for surgically removing a body part from a baby that can't choose for itself. The only reason would be a medical necessity.