German Manners? Or Just Rude?

[NotQuiteCockney]

Looking for input from any German or German-resident mumsnetters.

A friend of mine is German. It was her son's birthday recently, so she asked me to make a hat for him. I was flattered that she liked my knitting so much, but also a bit flummoxed, I don't enjoy knitting in a hurry. Was this normal German directness? Or just being rude?

She also claims that Germans don't ask their kids to say "please" and "thank you", as saying it without meaning it is bad. Or something. Is that true? I've only visited Germany briefly, but I remember a lot of "danke" and "bitte" happening. Surely everyone didn't always mean it?

I think there may be a class/age issue as well. All my elderly German rellies (quite grand and in their 80s) are extremely polite and are constantly irritated by the lack of pleases and thankyous in the younger generation, and concomitantly ecstatic about my children's delightful (ie. normal English) manners. Same seems to apply to table manners. None of my children's cousins seem to be able to use a knife and fork; they are also much more direct about saying when they don't like something.

I think the Germans have an ambivalent attitude to English politeness. On the one hand the faffiness of it is irritating and incomprehensible to them, but on the other they secretly quite admire it, while knowing they can never acquire it themselves. This is illustrated quite nicely by a film shown annually on New Year's Eve in Germany. Called 'Dinner for One' , and in English, it features a very grand old lady in her fomal dining room, with places laid for (IIRC -- years since I've seen it) a couple of other people, who aren't actually there. To preserve the pretence that these others are there, the butler has to drink their share, and of course gets more drunk each time he goes round the table, and keeps falling over (IIRC) a tiger's head rug, and various other obstacles. It's essentially a very stylised farce which to the English is just juvenile slapstick, but the elaborate and formal English manners form the focal point of the humour for Germans.

My dh reckons that I am totally hung up on the word "sorry". I can sulk for hours if he drops something on my foot (for example) and does not instantly stammer "I'm sorry", rather than just check that foot/implement are still intact and simply carrying on....and he sniggers when someone on the pavement bumps into me and I say sorry and then complain about being barged and no one saying sorry.... and there are loads of words for sorry in French, they just don't bloody use them.

Lurve "Knit hat". What about "Eat grape" and "Have tablecloth".

I'm not going to get started on an irrational rant about German manners after my hideous contract there earlier this year (see: my evil german landlord nearly murdered my dd thread).

What I am interested in is the whole manners thing. Surely we say please and thank you to show respect to other people and isn't that better than being blunt?

Why is boring people with 2 hour monologue about your piles a better thing to do than say 'fine thanks!'? People aren't really interested in how I am are they? Asking how you are is just courtesy - like saying good morning to the shop assistants in France.

I just don't see why our way is seen as so much worse than 'knit hat' or 'get beer'. People are saying that Brits aren't up front, but the German bluntness still hides the true meaning of the statement in the same way that our politeness might hide some unsavoury truths about our piles.

pinot, the problem is that many brits arent showing respect, they are just going through the motions. A classic example is Emma off Big Brother a couple of years ago - remember she who kept barging in on people in the loo, and then shouting "Sorreh!"
She couldn't understand why they were mad at her. There was one time when she was saying over and over again "But I said Sorry" and she never seemed to understand that she was the ONLY person who barged in on people in the loo, and "Sorry" was completely inadequate.

likewise with please and thank you, they are often unnecessary, and foreigners see it (at worst) as british slyness, pretending to be nice and friendly, when in fact they are just about to stab you in the back.

dx comes from a direct culture, so we tend to be direct in our family.

NN - Do you really think so? Most people that I come across are polite, even my step-teens and their 'Yes Mrs Patterson' mates. I guess there is a section of the population who aren't polite (can't comment on BB though, didn't see the one with Emma in, was overseas). It's a shame if that reflects on the whole population though.

I think that's awful about being thought sly. I'd never thought of it in that way.

I travel a lot with work and experience many different cultures. I spent a lot of time in a panic about manners in Thailand as you have to be very careful, but I made the effort to learn, and hopefully didn't offend too many people. Couldn't master Thai though!

NightyNight, I know a two year old girl who is the past mistress of flinging Lego or porridge, barging, nipping etc and then saying "horry", and tossing her curls. I had better confiscate her passport I think.
Having also lived in France and moved in a multinational environment (university halls) I know exactly what you mean about the British way of expressing itself being open to interpretation as sly and misleading. In the worst case I can remember, misplaced equivocal politeness about turning down invitations out led to a woman being stalked and then raped
There is a host of funny stories on here, and a lot of thought-provoking discussion, but this kind of cultural dissonance can lead to very serious consequences

please no dinner for one what IS it with that porgarmanne
i was asked all abotu it in 1988!

and the viennnese win thoguh
they locked mum a dn dad in a room in a palace as they didnt keep up with the group

yes, I know exactly what you mean Marina. they expect girls to know how to handle themselves. I certainly didnt as a student, but I will definitely make sure that my dds know how to say no unequivocally, in a multi-cultural world.
The upside is that "No" or "Please don't talk to me" has a magic effect, and the words "mon mari..." an even more magical one.

Im getting quite good at direct talk now, but still lapse into Britishness occasionally. Like today when someone asked me about a German text "do you understand that?"
Me: "I er, think I get the general meaning."
So then she kindly started to explain it to me!

I don't know much about Germans but directness can be refreshing.

However I am big on manners. It was one of the few things my mother taught me . She always said, mind your ps and qs when we were out, terrified we were going to embarrass her when out and about.

I don't think I am going through the motions. I am sorry and I am grateful. I have been barged into numerous times and never had a second look let alone an apology and it enrages me! 'Don't mind me!' I generally shout.

Can I just say that I saw the hat in question when it was about two thirds finished, and it is a very fine hat indeed, and beautifully knitted. All this talk of knitting has started me thinking that ds would look adorably cute in an aran jumper. What a great pity my knitting skills aren't up to it, if only I knew someone who was a skilled knitter.

I've turned a bit British I think since living here, and am now quite shocked sometimes at the German directness/bluntness.
I am still lacking myself in the please/thank you department though. I very often forget to say thank you when someone holds open the door for me - in Germany nobody many people don't bother to do that - and have often heard people mutter after me for not saying thank you...

Fascinating thread, this, btw!

franke - hi, do you live anywhere near
Bielefeld by any chance?
it's just your comment about the naked guy made me think that you might.i come from a town down the road from there and we used to get this man going round in the nude on his bike and as far as i know he's still doing it now though he must be getting on a bit now.
anyway, just brought back some funny memories.
going back there for xmas, might see him then, he used to wear just a wolly hat in winter!!

i'm german but have lived here for a long time now and every time i go back there i'm just amazed at how miserable people are in the shops and supermarkets and it's not just the staff - the customers are just as bad, nobody says sorry if they bump into you etc! and it's so weird because all the people i know over there are very polite and friendly and i have a great time when i'm over there. maybe they just all hate shopping??

Bran, I'm not doing sweaters at the moment, but I'll let you know when I am. It's all hats. (no seams!) Does DS need a hat? If you give me a head circumference, I'll happily do him one - particularly if I have a deadline of more than a week.

No lettuce, I'm in a fairly well-to-do suburb of Frankfurt. Our naked man cycles too in the middle of winter. Let's just say his complexion is ruddy......ALL OVER!

I've got the impression, from this thread and elsewhere, that Germans are more relaxed about nudity than Brits or Americans or whatever. An American friend of mine did her PhD in Berlin, and said the gym had shared showers, both genders, nude. Which you would not have here or in the US. Not that being relaxed about nudity is a bad thing!

NQC , that was an example of British style asking (as understood by an Irishwoman). Although now that I've thought of it I'll be dropping hints to my mum who's a great knitter. Thanks for the offer of the hat but ds already has a great collection of hats knitted and bought by doting relatives (although none as cool as the one you knitted).

Actually he has loads of jumpers too, and I know that I will resent having to handwash and dry it flat, and aran jumpers always seem to smell of old sheep. But he would look so cute, like a proper little Irish buachaill.

The beaches at the Berlin lakes are full of people with all their kit off, lying around on the grass or the sand sunning themselves. I don't think it's even segregated into nudist/nonnudist sections. It's Liberty Hall round there. Def. one to avoid if you have a sensitive disposition.

I have some German Step-relatives, and I dread going to visit, as we are formally interviewed by the patriarch (would you believe his name is Fritz?). Well that's what it feels like, anyway...we have to take it in turns to sit with him and answer questions, which it seems he has prepared in advance. Dh once asked him if he'd got the job, but Fritz didn't understand that bit!

Tissy . That is just surreal. But yes, German humour - ironic, dry, subtle.....these are not words I would ever use to describe German humour. I can almost see the tumbleweed blowing around after your dh made that quip. German humour = custard pies; quite sweet and innocent actually.