Lone mum asks "Ex's new wife supports him, why not us?"

[Matrushka]

I lived with my ex for nearly three years and we have a gorgeous 5 year old son.

When we split, three years ago, things were not great but eventually he agreed to a standing order of £200 a month in child maintenance.

A year ago he married, moved 50 miles out of London and has cut the maintenance to less than half, claiming he's earning less than before and that his solicitor has advised him he doesn't need to pay as much as he has a new family to support. Recently he said, in writing, that he revised the payment as I refused him access.

You've probably guessed that none of the above is true.

I didn't refuse ex access but I did insist on meeting his then wife-to-be and her son (he introduced our son to them without telling me). Is this unreasonable? I've since met them and ML sees his father, with them, every second Sunday. His father almost never sees him alone. Fortunately ML adores his stepbrother and gets on with stepmother.

Ex's stepson's father provides more than adequately for his own son.

Ex may not be earning as much, there is a recession going on and he does work in the events and entertainment industry however his wife, when I met her, made it very clear that she soesn't like his line of work. He used to mix with a lot of pretty women... She earns £45k a year working part time. She pays for her family's holidays and ex has recently bought himself a brand new car. Between them they have three properties (his are heavily mortgaged). She doesn't want to know about his maintenance, when I approached her, she said it was sour grapes on my part.

Grapes of financial wrath more like!

Anyone out there know any law that says she in anyway responisble for ML's lost maintenance? I earn a quarter of what she does (hopefully more now ML's in school)but I'm not in any way envious. I just think the system is unfair. Tried the CSA when we first split and they awarded me £16 a month! Ex is self emplyed and has a "creative" accountant.

If you guys tell me to move on, I will - and wait for the new 2011 child maintenance act to come in. It can't be any worse. It's scary to think what kind of justice we have.

Sorry, I think I meant that the maintenance paid to the ex is disregarded when calculating tax credits. Did I...?

Oh whatever, what I'm trying to say is that tax credit calculations for the second family use the income received before paying maintenance, thereby minimising TCs received. The tax credit calculations for the first family use the income recieved before receiving maintenance, thereby maximising TCs received.

The tax credits thing was cleverly left out of the OP wasn't it? She went on about only earning 11k, but of course at that level she'd be bringing in a fair bit more in tax credits, plus the £100 per month from her ex. And she admits to working part time because she wants to, which is a luxury many people can't afford.There does seem to be a big element of sour grapes just because the new woman earns more. TBH if the new woman is earning 45k also working part time, she's probably working pretty damn hard, or has worked damn hard in the past to get where she is, or has all sorts of other work pressures which the OP may know nothing about. There's a recession on - part time work at 45k isn't exactly falling into people's laps. This woman has obviously got something about her. And if she chooses to spend it on holidays and new cars, then up to her.

"Anita - by having the right to meet and deal with your SD without her mum's interference, you pretty much have the rights of a full parent anyway so don't get this point at all."

No I have no "rights" other than those of a kindly aunt who looks after a child occaisionally. I suggest you look up Parental Responsibilty. I am talking full responsibility for the child. I want a say in where she goes to school, religious choices made on her behalf, I want the right to attend parents evenings, and recieve a copy of her school report (my own copy, not what I am shown by either ofthe two biological parents), give medical consent on her behalf, if neccesary, and of course my own visitation schedule, seperate from that of my DH.

I'm sorry your overnight complaint is becoming more convoluted in my mind, you berate him for not wanting overnights, but now that he does he can't have them? maybe having another child in the house has made him realise what he is missing and he wants to correct this? Having him overnight would give you more free time and make up in some part for the maintenance you are missing out on.

Fianl point, more general one. The calculation for maintenance takes into accout the fact that the Parent With Care recieves CB and tax credits, so is reduced for the non Resident Parent to reflect that. The PWC recieves money from the state to keep the child, and so her contribution to the upkeep is considered to be 'similar' to the 15% the NRP pays. Maintenance doesn't count as income for the PWC.

Just to clarify my last post - I don't actually want these rights IRL, (I'm quite happy with my role in SDs life) unless I am going to be forced to contribute by law to a childs upbringing, none but the two people responsible for bringing the child into the world (with certain exceptions, such as addoption) should be forced to contribute financially to a childs upbringing, choose to contribute yes, forcibly contribute, no.

Anita - when we were paying child maintenance, neither of us had PR because the DCs were born before this was automatic for non-married fathers. The mother had married, her DH had PR and there is no way she was going to allow my DH to have it too. It is crap being expected to be a walking wallet but having no say in the DCs upbringing whatsoever.

The overnight point is a good one. IME, PWC's often moan about all the bills they have to pay - food, energy, etc. - but at the same time refuse more access to the NRP, which as you say would reduce these bills for them. They often want to have their cake and eat it. And as I said before, it is so often forgotten that the NRP would frequently be more than glad to take on more day to day responsibility for the children if only he was allowed to!

Gaelicsheep - My DH doesn't have PR for his own child at the moment either. The Ex decided to register the birth on her own, he asked, she agreed then went and did it without him anyway. Can you apply through the court for it anyway?

My DH would love more time or responsibility for his child, but as you say, he's a walking wallet, she's currently trying to offer 2/3 nights a month, just nicely below the threshold for a reduction in maintence, how convienient, apparently 3yo SD has 'prior commitments' the other nights.....

It's too late for us now Anita. The DCs are now grown up and we don't ever see them any more. It seems now that the financial ties are over they don't want anything more to do with DH, myself or their half brother .

THat sounds about right, but that's what happens when kids think that one parent is only there to provide money, not love. What a shame for the kids

I pity the children being brought up to think that money is more important than love. In our case, despite having never met her grandchild, because DH wasn't even allowed unsupervised visits for 2.5years, the ex complained that PIL had no rights to meet and have a relationship with her as they had never provided her with presents

If my son doesn't want to stay overnight, I'm not going to force him. Many people feel five is too young for sleepovers.

I never hid the fact that I get tax credits. The other family most definitely does not get tax credits - they already have enough money.

I'm very disappointed to think how many of you out there seem to think that I should be happy with a £100 a month in maintenance, given all the circumstances. I ask you, again, to look at the link I posted to child maintenance options (a website put up by the CSA). There's a new campaign on to get parents to agree their own maintenance because that calculated by the state is unfair in many cases, such as mine. Isn't it great that parents who agree about maintenance are calculated to get double the amount of those forced to go through the CSA? .

We're all defined by the choices we make. He sounds like a complete waste of space who feels no sense of responsibility for his own child. The ex's new GF will find that out in time, and no doubt to her own cost. Think you should feel loftily sorry for the pair of them.

I think most people have simply pointed out that many people are living on reduced incomes due to the recession, so you would probably have had less money coming in even if you were still together.

You say yourself your ex is earning less than he was. The fact that his new woman has money to buy holidays and cars is irrelevant to your situation. She'd be doing that even if she were single. It's just highlighted for you the fact that they have a higher standard of living than you do. But that's life. There are always people better off.

Personally I think it's a great shame that the CSA has to exist at all. It takes two people to make a child, those two people should share responsibility for that child right through to adulthood, end of. There are a hell of a lot of people out there who do work hard and take full responsibility, emotional, financial,for their children, and it's totally wrong that some people don't. Splitting up shouldn't change that. You may stop being husband or wife, but you don't stop being a parent.

And I'm still confused about why it's ok for you to earn 11k, but not ok for your ex to earn peanuts.

"Many people feel five is too young for sleepovers" Err, perhaps some parents think that for a 5 year old child at a friend's house. But are you seriously suggesting that is the same as a 5 year old child staying over night at his father's house?

Yes, strange turn of phrase. He's staying with his other parent!

"Sleepovers"? Um this is spending time with his father....?

His other parent has not put him to bed since 2005! Even when we were still together and that's because it was too much of an effort for him. Thank you, Quattrocento for pointing out what many people don't seem to have grasped. Yes - he is a waste of space!

But Quattro also said that we are defined by the choices we make. Yes, I agree - he sounds of a no hoper. We've grasped that. But you had a child with him, and now you need to move on as positively as possible. I mean, he wasn't even putting his own kid to bed when you were together, so presumably you wouldn't be happy and having the life of riley if you were together?!

Learn from the experience and move on. You can't change how he is; you are fortunate in being the PWC because you will be a far greater influence in your son's life. Show him by example what it means to be the better person!

TBH I think we all got that he was a waste of space. The thing is, there's not a lot anyone can do about that. There's no known cure for it.

Emphatically the best thing for you though is to move on. Ex won't pay, ex's GF shouldn't and won't pay, so the onus is on you and you alone, unfortunately. Why not use all your energy to find a better-paid job, and make yourself entirely independent of them?

He may be a waste of space but you chose to have a child with this man so you have to make it work. Talking about sleepovers with another parent is ridiculous and insulting.

I think in a ideal world your ex's new wife would help out and would be happy to do so recognising that you are all part of the same family. But you are not helping this to happen.

I agree - it isn't a "sleepover", it's spending time at his Dad's and dsd was doing overnights here at 5 with absolutely no problem - it's not too young IME.

The trouble is there still seems to be a lot of fighting going on here. You are saying he can't see his son overnight, so he sees you as having the power and control - and the control over something that isn't yours to control, he's his child too. He wants to redress the balance and exert some control too - how can he do that? The only way is by using money.

If he's reduced his maintenance because he's earning less then fair enough. If he's reduced it because you aren't letting him see his son overnight, I don't agree with what he's done, but can see what his thinking is. To him it looks like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to have your child all the time, and you want him to pay for him. And that's pretty galling from his point of view. And even more so from his wife's point of view if you are expecting her to make up the difference.

How long has he been in recovery?

You want him to pay more money to support his child but you refer to his son staying overnight with him as a "sleepover"??? These are not friends, this is his father.

I say it AGAIN and AGAIN; both people have to have respect for each other in order to be able to bring up their children in the best possible way i.e. being able to discuss finances openly and discuss important welfare decisions.

You have totally no respect for him at all (judging by this thread) so your opinion of him and his life is tainted, it has to be, surely? It has become all focused on money and no consideration for the relationship between him and his son. You say he never tucks him in or does anything for him on his own but what have you done as your son's mother to try and help them bond? Honestly? THAT is part of being a mother, ensuring your child has the enjoyment of all the key relationships in their life, including their father (whatever you think about him)

Whatever you think of him every child deserves to know and love their father as intimately as they know and love their mother. These type of situations just don't give me the confidence that is happening with millions of children.

My stepson, 2 years ago, arrived at my house with his dad for his weekend stay. He was really quiet until halfway through the weekend DH asked him what was wrong. He got really upset to which DH cuddled him until he calmed down. He told DH that mummy had been calling daddy horrible names on the phone through the week and it upset him.

Nowadays he is not allowed to discuss his dad at his mums house because he says his mum gets cross with him. It is heart wrenching when a child says to you "Don't worry though Dad, I keep all our good things secret in my head.."

Actually after reading that back to myself, you need to stop focusing on the money and start trying to help enhance your sons relationship with his father.

You never know, he may start to believe that you care about what is happening and start to try and meet you halfway.

'THAT is part of being a mother, ensuring your child has the enjoyment of all the key relationships in their life,'

what wise words.

I think that's so relevant to so many situations, more so where there is a step parent involved, but it's true of any family too.

Any parent who tries to use a child as part of a power game, or who tries to keep the child clinging to them, because of their own wants and needs, rather than allowing the child to build positive relationships with other key figures, is really letting their child down.

"His other parent has not put him to bed since 2005!"

Hang on a minute. You split up 3 years ago, so in 2007 ish. Since then, you have also denied him the opportunity to have his son stay overnight.

So, in fact, unless I've misunderstood, the reason he has not put his son to bed since 2007 is because he has not been with him at bed time!

You want more money, but effectively, you are not prepared to let him see his son more, or in a way which works welll for his new family. If your ds is saying he doesn't want to go, then you need to find a way to talk positively about the experience with him. He's 5, not 5 months.

He's been in recovery just over a year, Surfermum, but he has told so many lies over the past years that's is difficult to believe that sometimes.

Stepmum kicked him out 14 times in the first six months they were married. In the beginning she confided in me but then became embarassed and didn't want to be involved in the financial wrangling either. I do like her and think it's much better that she's around, in terms of my son. But as you may be able to understand it's a difficult situation and I've been told she's jealous of me, as well as the women ex used to work with.

So do you not think the situation is unstable? And it's also very difficult to respect him. Surfermum has it right when he talks about control though. And it would be great if I could disregard that the way he is behaving is financially immoral.But the smirking gets me down. He's happy to see his son once a fortnight. Why doesn't he try and see him more? he must have the opportunity if he's not working and help me out by picking him up from school for instance.

BTW - I'm not going to persuade my son to stay the night unless he wants to. He is not close to his father and needs to have a few more sleepovers with Grandma and near by friends before being 50 miles away and unhappy all night.

Matrushka, instead of just thanking those posters who appear to agree with you, how about actually reading and taking on board what others have said?

Sometimes it is an idea to take an inward look at ourselves and realise that not everything we do is not always the right thing to do.

Don't make your son's relationship with his father be just about money. It will end in bitterness and heartache. Perhaps if you start to be more reasonable about access and overnight stays, your ex will start to be more reasonable about financial support.

Also ex has had the opportunity to have a "joint" sleepover at Granma's (his mum). He stays there when he's working in London. But has it happened, errr, no.