Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

[tinytoessize4]

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

i think you might need to rethink how you communicate if your 'come round for tea and biscuits' gets that sort of response.

Bloody hell if you were my neighbour I would take you to court to gain access over the right of way immediately - how rude to think that you can lock her out of her right of way just because the door belongs to you and you have the key! Legal eagle or not being a bloody decent human being comes above all of that you should give her a key and then talk about this or you just look like a prig (in the nicest possible sense!)

I think maybe you will get the land and then she will have party wall issues and object to planning - and I live in a listed house believe me when the historic buildings advisors come sniffing around the cost doubles in front of your eyes! Most of our village is listed actually and you can't even stick a conserv on these houses let alone an extension!

thanks lulumama but if i linked scans of the letters between me and her - i know which would sound the harshest!

if she gets the land castafiore then she'll have to purchase it back.

decent human bean that i am, i didn't know that she didn't have the key and il be blowed after what she said if im going to let her have a copy now!

the solicitor friend i know has come up with two ideas -

i) the land is not hers at all - because there was no purchase between the owners.

ii) the change of use of the passage over the years and the lack of use causes the easement to dissipate.

so, the saga goes on.

Does this propsed extension mean your wall will adjoin hers? Might she, in that case, have a genuine cause for concern?

What a nice neighbour you are, a right little know it all.
I hope she takes you to court, be sure to come back and tell us all about it so we can have a good laugh about how she wiped the floor with you.

sorry lilacclaire, could you read the thread again and point out where she's been reasonable as well?

if it does go to court (which i doubt) i don't think she'll wipe the floor with me that much tbh she doesn't have a leg to stand on.

ps, knowing things isn't something to be ashamed of.

clam - yeah, the wall will adjoin hers and we've both looked into the party wall etc act 1996 so i think we're covered in that case. we'll follow the rules

Tinytoes, thank heavens you're not my neighbour! On what basis do you think this will not go to court? Knowing what the Party Wall Act says doesn't mean your neighbour has to agree with it! You're proposing to turn her house into a semi-detached one from the sound of things, which bit of "she doesn't agree with this" are you not getting?

"il be blowed after what she said if im going to let her have a copy now" - so you potentially ARE restricting her access to a right of way?

Why would she not have a leg to stand on? You're planning on some pretty major alterations by the sounds of it. It may only be 3 feet or so, and less than 2K (!!??) but it will surely impact on her to a huge degree, and therefore any objection by her to the planning application will carry huge weight. That's not counting the right of way issue. Just because there's an absence of paperwork on the matter doesn't mean ownership is proven. It sounds as if she knows her stuff on law, so I would recommend proceeding with caution. I really can't see her taking this one lying down.

annh - its a really odd shaped house anyway. its a semi at the top and not at the bottom. she said that the cost of her survey of the proposed works would be footed by us, which it does not state in the party wall etc act 1996. it states that in the event of dispute a third surveyor, chosen by the two appointed surveyors of each interested parties would ascretain who would 'foot the bill'.
nervosal - i don't see why i should give her one, she's kicking up a fuss as she wants money for something she doesn't use. so in the words of a 10yr old having a strop 'ya boo sucks' to her.
clam - i meant she wouldn't a leg to stand on in terms of a land dispute. not in terms of planning permission which is different. in terms of planning permission she could object on whatever grounds she wished but these would be weighed against the planning policy of the council and submitted proposals and reports.

she probably won't take this lying down but (rolls up sleeves to mean business) bring it on.

Oh go on - you have to be a troll, you can't be real, honestly?

really, not a troll. just an irked neighbour.

She might not have used it (although it sounds as if she wasn't aware that she could) but surely that doesn't mean she should give it to you! I don't use the nettle-y bit in the bottom corner of my garden, but that doesn't mean my neighbour can build on it.

Actually, you know I really think that she is the one with cause to be irked. Sorry.

clam - she did know about it, she brought it up first asking for compensation.

unless there was something written in your title deeds saying the nettle-y bit at the bottom of the garden wasn't yours but your neighbours, and you only had right of way through it thats the equivalent scenario you suppose. in which case, the nettle-y bit (the passage) is ours but she can crawl through it (right of way). but we don't even know if she can do that!

Cannot believe I clicked on this thread again.

Tinytoes, barely a SINGLE person on this over-200 post thread thinks you are in the right or that you are handling this in the right way.

If this doesn't tell you something, you are truly a sociopath.

ps spoke and emailed our solicitors who acted for us in 2007 - the woman who handled our conveyance has left but they'll dig it up out of the archives and look into it. also, emailed lawanswers.co.uk

Well, something's p*** her off in the meantime to make her change her mind, then, because she seems to have gone from "let's swap right-of-ways" to "stop harrassing me or else." Doesn't bode well, anyway.

Wilfsell - somehow, I don't think tinytoes cares what any of us think, she is after all the only one in the right. And to think she will be a solicitor soon .

Tinytoes - you are amazingly stubborn.

If she asks you for a copy of the key to the lock and you don't give her one she would be entitled to ask you to remove the lock so that she can exercise her right of access. Whether she's used it in the past or not will have no bearing - if she wants to use it NOW and you prevent her then YOU are in the wrong.

All this for a bloody extra couple of feet in a kitchen??

How are you going to get the work done if you piss her off so much that she denies you access to her property?

look, its not that i don't appreciate your points of view but you don't seem to have actually read what has been written - the content - you have reacted to it on the way its been written instead. it may not come across sweetly but the information in it is accurate and i don't understand how you can have failed to get what it means?

if, when you do, you reach the same conclusion that she has every right to be entitled to compensation then fine but if you read it and you think hold on, she's just wanting a little more money to line her purse, that fine too.

If you are neighbour mentioned please take legal action to be able to use your right of way to the passage and then it will snaffle the OPs chance of using said land - or do the swap and then kick up to the planning authorities so she can't have the work done - which is unlikely for the £2k she has been quoted - I had a bloody kitchen tiled and refloored and painted and that cost us considerably more than 2k !

No, we are used to people writing bluntly on mumsnet. You always get an honest, un-biased answer on here - and that is what you have got.

As to us having failed to get what you mean - there are several highly qualified solicitors on here, amongst many other intelligent people i'm sure, please believe that we understand what you are talking about - and still find that your attitude beggars belief!